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Author | Topic: Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: So again I ask why anyone should take your ideas any more seriously than mine? Well, I may have even mentioned this once or twice but what does the evidence show?
Phat writes: (Specifically the idea that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen being at one definition unknowable and on another definition schooled by humans.) On the former I simply ask you to explain how you can know a God or any supernatural entity and on the latter I simply quote what the Bible stories say.
Phat writes: Additionally you make the point that Jesus is no wiser than any other human of his era and that in fact we likely are wiser than him now.... Well we have learned a few things over the last 2000 years and there is no evidence that Jesus knew about most of them. But what I actually say more often is that we are more moral today than Jesus was and far more moral than the Biblical God character was. And again, I support that by pointing to the evidence; what the Bible stories say. I have never said that your ideas are unique and in fact there is a whole industry in the US marketing what you profess. There is gold in them thar Biblical Christian pockets.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes: (Specifically the idea that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen being at one definition unknowable and on another definition schooled by humans.) jar writes: On the former I simply ask you to explain how you can know a God or any supernatural entity and on the latter I simply quote what the Bible stories say. I may have mentioned before that it is irrelevant how we can know a GOD (or GOD) but that the important thing is that He first knew us.I realize what the Bible stories say, but I ask you to use logic, reason, and reality. What sense does it make for the Creator of all seen and unseen to require humans to correct Him?
jar writes: I can agree that the God character was not very nice in the OT, and my usual rationalization is that in this case it was human interpretation of that character and/or it was humans who carried out the immorality which they wrote that the God character had demanded. Lets discuss Jesus, however---as written. Apart from your example of a temper tantrum in the temple and/or allowing lots of money to be spent on an alabaster jar of anointing ointment, how have we as a species progressed to being any more moral than Jesus was? Examples would help. what I actually say more often is that we are more moral today than Jesus was and far more moral than the Biblical God character was. And again, I support that by pointing to the evidence; what the Bible stories say.Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: I may have mentioned before that it is irrelevant how we can know a GOD (or GOD) but that the important thing is that He first knew us.I realize what the Bible stories say, but I ask you to use logic, reason, and reality. What sense does it make for the Creator of all seen and unseen to require humans to correct Him? What the hell does "the important thing is that He first knew us" even mean and why would it be important even if true?
Phat writes: I realize what the Bible stories say, but I ask you to use logic, reason, and reality. What sense does it make for the Creator of all seen and unseen to require humans to correct Him? Again, what the hell does that even mean and why would it be of any importance even if true? And the lesson that should have been easy for even you to learn from the stories is that knowing right from wrong is not easy even for a God and in many cases there is no absolute right or wrong but only slightly more right or slightly more wrong. The lesson is that you need to stop looking to God to define right and wrong and stop looking for God to solve problems. It's all up to you. AbE:
Phat writes: Apart from your example of a temper tantrum in the temple and/or allowing lots of money to be spent on an alabaster jar of anointing ointment, how have we as a species progressed to being any more moral than Jesus was? Examples would help. Well a great example in addition to those you mention (you forgot Jesus snapping and sassing his mother and that the money spent was not his but rather taken from the Communist community funds) is that we (at least in the US) no longer say silly stuff like "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" but rather say "You can't stone people; period!" We allows all citizens to vote. We have laws making discrimination illegal. We grant women rights. We do not crucify people and leave them hanging for display. Edited by jar, : see AbEAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Maybe a better question would be, "How have believers progressed to be as moral as unbelievers?"
... how have we as a species progressed to being any more moral than Jesus was?
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
How have believers progressed to be as moral as unbelievers? The question assumes that believers have made such progress. We already know that the "morality" we see in theocracies today is just as heinous as any practiced by religionists the past 3000 years. I wonder if, in the absence of secular governance, the "morality" shown us by religionists in the western democracies today would have improved any over what they have shown these millennia past.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: The idea that God exists and cares about us is arguably important. It is arguably unimportant if there is a Creator of all seen and unseen who cant be bothered to give you the time of day.If we are unimportant to Him, we are unimportant period. It all becomes survival. Which is why there are wars, by the way. What the hell does "the important thing is that He first knew us" even mean and why would it be important even if true?Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: The idea that God exists and cares about us is arguably important. It is arguably unimportant if there is a Creator of all seen and unseen who cant be bothered to give you the time of day.If we are unimportant to Him, we are unimportant period. It all becomes survival. Which is why there are wars, by the way. Really? Haven't most wars been over "My God has a bigger dick than your God!" Didn't God care enough to be the deity of the Fascists and Nazis and Democracies; of Allies and Axis; of Saracen and Crusader, of Roundheads and Cavaliers, of Kings and Peasant, of Protestant and Roman Catholic ... Haven't you noticed that God is almost always on both sides when it comes to wars? Is it not possible that all live might be important to a God, pond scum and slime mold, human and worm? Or do YOU want to be important to some God? Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Didn't God care enough to be the deity of the Fascists and Nazis and Democracies; of Allies and Axis; of Saracen and Crusader, of Roundheads and Cavaliers, of Kings and Peasant, of Protestant and Roman Catholic ... Of course. God cares enough to be the God of everyone. God is no respecter of persons.
Haven't you noticed that God is almost always on both sides when it comes to wars? Of course. The war is our problem...not His. That being said, I would imagine that God cares about the suffering on both sides.
Is it not possible that all life might be important to a God, pond scum and slime mold, human and worm? Entirely possible and likely.
Or do YOU want to be important to some God? I am important to Him. So are you. So are we all. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But are you more important to God than is pond scum?
So how does any of this relate to the topic? Well it is more evidence that the Bible is simply the words of men, written for men and reflecting the gods that men create. Edited by jar, : fix sub-titleAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
AZPaul3 writes:
That's what I'm saying. In many ways, religionists have had to play catch-up with the secular world, morality-wise.
I wonder if, in the absence of secular governance, the "morality" shown us by religionists in the western democracies today would have improved any over what they have shown these millennia past.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
"Theocracies today"? You mean Islam? That's the only theocracy I know of. You would compare Islam with the history of Christendom?. That's perfectly idiotic. You don't even know the source of the "secular" morality in the West, do you, all you ridiculous screaming idiots.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You should acknowledge that much of the morality in the West has been the direct result of a fear of Christian oppression. In particular the protection of religious freedom in the US was a direct result of fear of Puritans gaining power or authority.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jar writes:
Yes, I should have added that Freedom of Religion is primarily freedom from persecution by other religions. It isn't about what you can do yourself so much as about what others can't do to you and you can't do to them. If religions were morally self-policing, we wouldn't need secular protection from them.
You should acknowledge that much of the morality in the West has been the direct result of a fear of Christian oppression. In particular the protection of religious freedom in the US was a direct result of fear of Puritans gaining power or authority.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
What an idiot you are, you all are. ... you ridiculous screaming idiots. Are you off your meds again?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
But are you more important to God than is pond scum? I've no idea. Is an oak tree more important to God than a housefly? Humans would assume so. The oak tree is certainly more important to us...
So how does any of this relate to the topic? It is a discussion and a debate between those of us who believe that God desires to relate to humans and speaks to us through the books versus the Apostle to the atheists who insists that GOD is unknowable and Jesus was just another human with a valuable message! Well it is more evidence that the Bible is simply the words of men, written for men and reflecting the gods that men create. I could argue that the god you create is your own ego. You tell us that we are charged...by whom? (By ourselves,of course) It is all up to us. I say that in communion with God it is all up to us. (And the real GOD, by the way...not one made up in our heads.)Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)
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