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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 826 of 2241 (744419)
12-10-2014 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 825 by Phat
12-10-2014 12:03 PM


Re: Jesus as human while on earth
Phat writes:
So again I ask why anyone should take your ideas any more seriously than mine?
Well, I may have even mentioned this once or twice but what does the evidence show?
Phat writes:
(Specifically the idea that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen being at one definition unknowable and on another definition schooled by humans.)
On the former I simply ask you to explain how you can know a God or any supernatural entity and on the latter I simply quote what the Bible stories say.
Phat writes:
Additionally you make the point that Jesus is no wiser than any other human of his era and that in fact we likely are wiser than him now....
Well we have learned a few things over the last 2000 years and there is no evidence that Jesus knew about most of them. But what I actually say more often is that we are more moral today than Jesus was and far more moral than the Biblical God character was. And again, I support that by pointing to the evidence; what the Bible stories say.
I have never said that your ideas are unique and in fact there is a whole industry in the US marketing what you profess. There is gold in them thar Biblical Christian pockets.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 825 by Phat, posted 12-10-2014 12:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 827 by Phat, posted 12-14-2014 3:39 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 827 of 2241 (744684)
12-14-2014 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 826 by jar
12-10-2014 10:13 PM


Re: Jesus as human while on earth
Phat writes:
(Specifically the idea that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen being at one definition unknowable and on another definition schooled by humans.)
jar writes:
On the former I simply ask you to explain how you can know a God or any supernatural entity and on the latter I simply quote what the Bible stories say.
I may have mentioned before that it is irrelevant how we can know a GOD (or GOD) but that the important thing is that He first knew us.I realize what the Bible stories say, but I ask you to use logic, reason, and reality. What sense does it make for the Creator of all seen and unseen to require humans to correct Him?
jar writes:
what I actually say more often is that we are more moral today than Jesus was and far more moral than the Biblical God character was. And again, I support that by pointing to the evidence; what the Bible stories say.
I can agree that the God character was not very nice in the OT, and my usual rationalization is that in this case it was human interpretation of that character and/or it was humans who carried out the immorality which they wrote that the God character had demanded. Lets discuss Jesus, however---as written. Apart from your example of a temper tantrum in the temple and/or allowing lots of money to be spent on an alabaster jar of anointing ointment, how have we as a species progressed to being any more moral than Jesus was? Examples would help.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 826 by jar, posted 12-10-2014 10:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 828 by jar, posted 12-14-2014 4:35 PM Phat has replied
 Message 829 by ringo, posted 12-15-2014 11:11 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 828 of 2241 (744686)
12-14-2014 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 827 by Phat
12-14-2014 3:39 PM


Re: Jesus as human while on earth
Phat writes:
I may have mentioned before that it is irrelevant how we can know a GOD (or GOD) but that the important thing is that He first knew us.I realize what the Bible stories say, but I ask you to use logic, reason, and reality. What sense does it make for the Creator of all seen and unseen to require humans to correct Him?
What the hell does "the important thing is that He first knew us" even mean and why would it be important even if true?
Phat writes:
I realize what the Bible stories say, but I ask you to use logic, reason, and reality. What sense does it make for the Creator of all seen and unseen to require humans to correct Him?
Again, what the hell does that even mean and why would it be of any importance even if true?
And the lesson that should have been easy for even you to learn from the stories is that knowing right from wrong is not easy even for a God and in many cases there is no absolute right or wrong but only slightly more right or slightly more wrong.
The lesson is that you need to stop looking to God to define right and wrong and stop looking for God to solve problems.
It's all up to you.
AbE:
Phat writes:
Apart from your example of a temper tantrum in the temple and/or allowing lots of money to be spent on an alabaster jar of anointing ointment, how have we as a species progressed to being any more moral than Jesus was? Examples would help.
Well a great example in addition to those you mention (you forgot Jesus snapping and sassing his mother and that the money spent was not his but rather taken from the Communist community funds) is that we (at least in the US) no longer say silly stuff like "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" but rather say "You can't stone people; period!"
We allows all citizens to vote. We have laws making discrimination illegal. We grant women rights. We do not crucify people and leave them hanging for display.
Edited by jar, : see AbE

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 827 by Phat, posted 12-14-2014 3:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 831 by Phat, posted 12-15-2014 11:51 PM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 829 of 2241 (744771)
12-15-2014 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 827 by Phat
12-14-2014 3:39 PM


Re: Jesus as human while on earth
Phat writes:
... how have we as a species progressed to being any more moral than Jesus was?
Maybe a better question would be, "How have believers progressed to be as moral as unbelievers?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 827 by Phat, posted 12-14-2014 3:39 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 830 by AZPaul3, posted 12-15-2014 10:24 PM ringo has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 830 of 2241 (744807)
12-15-2014 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 829 by ringo
12-15-2014 11:11 AM


Re: Jesus as human while on earth
How have believers progressed to be as moral as unbelievers?
The question assumes that believers have made such progress. We already know that the "morality" we see in theocracies today is just as heinous as any practiced by religionists the past 3000 years. I wonder if, in the absence of secular governance, the "morality" shown us by religionists in the western democracies today would have improved any over what they have shown these millennia past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 829 by ringo, posted 12-15-2014 11:11 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 835 by ringo, posted 12-16-2014 10:49 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 836 by Faith, posted 12-16-2014 11:01 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 831 of 2241 (744810)
12-15-2014 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 828 by jar
12-14-2014 4:35 PM


Re: Jesus as human while on earth
jar writes:
What the hell does "the important thing is that He first knew us" even mean and why would it be important even if true?
The idea that God exists and cares about us is arguably important. It is arguably unimportant if there is a Creator of all seen and unseen who cant be bothered to give you the time of day.If we are unimportant to Him, we are unimportant period. It all becomes survival. Which is why there are wars, by the way.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 828 by jar, posted 12-14-2014 4:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 832 by jar, posted 12-16-2014 12:07 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 832 of 2241 (744811)
12-16-2014 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 831 by Phat
12-15-2014 11:51 PM


Re: Jesus as human while on earth
Phat writes:
The idea that God exists and cares about us is arguably important. It is arguably unimportant if there is a Creator of all seen and unseen who cant be bothered to give you the time of day.If we are unimportant to Him, we are unimportant period. It all becomes survival. Which is why there are wars, by the way.
Really? Haven't most wars been over "My God has a bigger dick than your God!"
Didn't God care enough to be the deity of the Fascists and Nazis and Democracies; of Allies and Axis; of Saracen and Crusader, of Roundheads and Cavaliers, of Kings and Peasant, of Protestant and Roman Catholic ...
Haven't you noticed that God is almost always on both sides when it comes to wars?
Is it not possible that all live might be important to a God, pond scum and slime mold, human and worm?
Or do YOU want to be important to some God?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 831 by Phat, posted 12-15-2014 11:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 833 by Phat, posted 12-16-2014 1:28 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 833 of 2241 (744812)
12-16-2014 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 832 by jar
12-16-2014 12:07 AM


Is Humanity more than a simple footnote to GOD?
Didn't God care enough to be the deity of the Fascists and Nazis and Democracies; of Allies and Axis; of Saracen and Crusader, of Roundheads and Cavaliers, of Kings and Peasant, of Protestant and Roman Catholic ...
Of course. God cares enough to be the God of everyone. God is no respecter of persons.
Haven't you noticed that God is almost always on both sides when it comes to wars?
Of course. The war is our problem...not His. That being said, I would imagine that God cares about the suffering on both sides.
Is it not possible that all life might be important to a God, pond scum and slime mold, human and worm?
Entirely possible and likely.
Or do YOU want to be important to some God?
I am important to Him. So are you. So are we all.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 832 by jar, posted 12-16-2014 12:07 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 834 by jar, posted 12-16-2014 8:13 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 834 of 2241 (744819)
12-16-2014 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 833 by Phat
12-16-2014 1:28 AM


just more evidence that the Bible is just the words of men.
But are you more important to God than is pond scum?
So how does any of this relate to the topic? Well it is more evidence that the Bible is simply the words of men, written for men and reflecting the gods that men create.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 833 by Phat, posted 12-16-2014 1:28 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 840 by Phat, posted 12-16-2014 11:19 AM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 835 of 2241 (744831)
12-16-2014 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 830 by AZPaul3
12-15-2014 10:24 PM


Re: Jesus as human while on earth
AZPaul3 writes:
I wonder if, in the absence of secular governance, the "morality" shown us by religionists in the western democracies today would have improved any over what they have shown these millennia past.
That's what I'm saying. In many ways, religionists have had to play catch-up with the secular world, morality-wise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 830 by AZPaul3, posted 12-15-2014 10:24 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 837 by jar, posted 12-16-2014 11:08 AM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 836 of 2241 (744836)
12-16-2014 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 830 by AZPaul3
12-15-2014 10:24 PM


Re: Jesus as human while on earth
"Theocracies today"? You mean Islam? That's the only theocracy I know of. You would compare Islam with the history of Christendom?. That's perfectly idiotic. You don't even know the source of the "secular" morality in the West, do you, all you ridiculous screaming idiots.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 830 by AZPaul3, posted 12-15-2014 10:24 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 839 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-16-2014 11:18 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 837 of 2241 (744840)
12-16-2014 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 835 by ringo
12-16-2014 10:49 AM


sources of morality
You should acknowledge that much of the morality in the West has been the direct result of a fear of Christian oppression. In particular the protection of religious freedom in the US was a direct result of fear of Puritans gaining power or authority.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 835 by ringo, posted 12-16-2014 10:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 838 by ringo, posted 12-16-2014 11:13 AM jar has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 838 of 2241 (744842)
12-16-2014 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 837 by jar
12-16-2014 11:08 AM


Re: sources of morality
jar writes:
You should acknowledge that much of the morality in the West has been the direct result of a fear of Christian oppression. In particular the protection of religious freedom in the US was a direct result of fear of Puritans gaining power or authority.
Yes, I should have added that Freedom of Religion is primarily freedom from persecution by other religions. It isn't about what you can do yourself so much as about what others can't do to you and you can't do to them. If religions were morally self-policing, we wouldn't need secular protection from them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 837 by jar, posted 12-16-2014 11:08 AM jar has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 839 of 2241 (744843)
12-16-2014 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 836 by Faith
12-16-2014 11:01 AM


Re: Jesus as human while on earth
What an idiot you are, you all are.
...
you ridiculous screaming idiots.
Are you off your meds again?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 836 by Faith, posted 12-16-2014 11:01 AM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 840 of 2241 (744846)
12-16-2014 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 834 by jar
12-16-2014 8:13 AM


Re: just more evidence that the Bible is just the words of men.
But are you more important to God than is pond scum?
I've no idea. Is an oak tree more important to God than a housefly? Humans would assume so. The oak tree is certainly more important to us...
So how does any of this relate to the topic?
It is a discussion and a debate between those of us who believe that God desires to relate to humans and speaks to us through the books versus the Apostle to the atheists who insists that GOD is unknowable and Jesus was just another human with a valuable message!
Well it is more evidence that the Bible is simply the words of men, written for men and reflecting the gods that men create.
I could argue that the god you create is your own ego. You tell us that we are charged...by whom? (By ourselves,of course) It is all up to us. I say that in communion with God it is all up to us. (And the real GOD, by the way...not one made up in our heads.)

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 834 by jar, posted 12-16-2014 8:13 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 841 by jar, posted 12-16-2014 11:34 AM Phat has replied

  
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