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Author Topic:   What Does Critical Thinking Mean To You?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 198 of 339 (722532)
03-21-2014 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Tangle
03-21-2014 6:41 PM


RAZD writes:
It fits with your worldview.
It fits with how the world seems to work.
In your opinion, based on your worldview.
It doesn't fit with your worldview.
It doesn't fit with the way the world seems to work.
In your opinion, based on your worldview.
To reject evidence just because it is weak is not critical thinking imho.
To prefer strong evidence to weak evidence is rational. The reverse would be irrational.
But you didn't say you had strong evidence, and I'm talking about the only evidence you have is weak.
It is irrational to reject the only evidence you have just because it is weak. Critcal thinking would say it's the best information you have.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Tangle, posted 03-21-2014 6:41 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2014 4:13 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 202 of 339 (722571)
03-22-2014 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Tangle
03-22-2014 4:13 AM


I'm pretty sure you understand the point, ...
But do you understand my point ...
Your worldview is your cognitive construct, your sum total intellectual and emotional model based on your education, experiences, beliefs, all the books you've read and the discussions you've had, your politics and your philosophy.
The way you approach questions and answers is necessarily filtered (seen through the eyes of) your worldview, including what you believe are universal "default" positions.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2014 4:13 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2014 6:09 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 204 of 339 (722622)
03-23-2014 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Tangle
03-22-2014 6:09 PM


I'm renowned for rarely missing the blindingly obvious ...
Well, imho, whether or not the bridge is out is a question where the "blindingly obvious" default would be "I don't know" -- and that you can make assumptions based on your worldview and whatever evidence is at hand, no matter how weak that is, but you won't really know until you get to the bridge.
Critical thinking -- to me anyway -- includes recognizing when you don't know, and separating assumption from hypothesis based on facts, theory and knowledge into a hierarchy of relative likelihood.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2014 6:09 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Tangle, posted 03-24-2014 4:52 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 206 of 339 (722671)
03-24-2014 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Tangle
03-24-2014 4:52 AM


Of course you don't know whether the bridge is out or not. Just like you don't know whether its been magically made out of marshmallow. But those two states are not equally probable and one would require a larger amount of evidence to convince you than the other.
Actually all it takes is seeing the bridge, up until that point you are operating on assumptions based on your worldview.
To say that you don't know if the bridge is there or not, despite your world experience telling you that in 100% of all the thousands of times you've approached a bridge it was there, is not critical thinking, it's just pseudo-philosophical silliness.
I guess I travel in a different world, as I've had instances of bridges being out, and I've seen newscasts of bridges being taken out, so no it is not 100%, and it depends on a lot of factors, all of which go into your evaluation of the situation depending on your worldview.
But feel free to drive off the edge to prove your point.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Tangle, posted 03-24-2014 4:52 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Tangle, posted 03-24-2014 8:57 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 208 of 339 (722700)
03-24-2014 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Tangle
03-24-2014 8:57 AM


As you are now determined to be ridiculous, you don't actually know whether the bridge is made out of marshmallow until you drive onto it and you may never know if it's been put there by magic.
Seems you are the one insisting on going to silly extremes.
I sure am. That's the entire point. I'm working on everyone in the world's view ...
No, you are assuming that other people's worldviews are exactly like yours, when that is an obvious fallacy.
... that the bridge is more likely to be there than not ...
Which is still an assumption based on your worldview until the issue is tested.
... and I'll be correct in virtually 100% of normal circumstances so to think otherwise would be an error in critical thinking.
Assuming you are correct without actually testing it is not, imho, critical thinking but dogmatic thinking.
In normal circumstances the chance of the bridge being there is as near to 100% that makes no difference. ...
In your opinion based on your worldview. There are places in this world where this is not true, and people living there would have different assumptions based on their worldviews.
... The antecedent probability principle deals with likelihoods, not certainties.
And yet you claim "virtually 100%" certainty ...
You travel in the same world as I do and you know that, all things being equal, the bridge will be there. If you've got no reason to suspect otherwise, it's an error in critical thinking not to expect the bridge to be there.
Curiously there are roads that I have taken because the bridge is out, a fact I am very confident of being the case based on past observation and the likelihood of it remaining so for a long time. The road less traveled and all that.
I also travel a lot of back roads where the possibility is real that bridges are out. What one expects is based on what one knows and has experienced and all the other elements that go into the worldview one has.
The default is "I don't know" and it doesn't matter how much you convince yourself that you can be sure of the result.
Now stop being silly.
After you.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Tangle, posted 03-24-2014 8:57 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Tangle, posted 03-24-2014 11:33 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 229 of 339 (722882)
03-25-2014 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by New Cat's Eye
03-24-2014 3:07 PM


Recognize unstated assumptions and values
Comprehend and use language with accuracy, clarity, and discernment
There are a lot of factors that should be reviewed, and continually reassessed.
Assuming the same result will always apply is not critical thinking.
The probability of throwing a seven with a pair of dice does not change with the last throw, and the possibility of getting cat's eyes is always the same. And that's when you know the odds.
Last year a bridge was our near me ...
And everytime there ever has been a bridge out, there's big orange constructions signs with flashing lights that say: "BRIDGE OUT AHEAD".
... but it was out because of an accident that had just occurred, and there were no signs. This occurs about once a year here.
The other way to the other side is somewhat longer, but going back to it is a considerably longer trip. If one ABSOLUTELY HAD to be at their destination by a specific time the prudent course is to avoid the bridge.
Critical thinking would mean assessing the results of error in judgement as well as assumed likelihoods of success, and if a perceived blockage\error would be fatal to the mission where another path would yield positive results, then you go with the known positive.
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-24-2014 3:07 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-25-2014 5:07 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 232 of 339 (722905)
03-25-2014 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Tangle
03-24-2014 11:33 AM


This is not about my opinion, nor my world view - it's a general principle that applies to all people everywhere.
In your opinion based on your worldview.
To apply any other logic to these situations would be irrational and to deny that we can know things about the world.
Always assuming that what happened yesterday will happen again today will always fail on the day it is not the same no matter how infrequently it occurs.
Failing to recognize that is not critical thinking but dogmatic thinking.
Critical thinking also assesses the risks for when it fails.
The sillyness ends here; for me at least.
Glad to see that you will be stopping it then.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Tangle, posted 03-24-2014 11:33 AM Tangle has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 279 of 339 (744969)
12-17-2014 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by jar
12-17-2014 11:12 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix -- what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???
In the case of the bridge the reasonable and thinking position is to assume the bridge is not there until you visually confirm that the bridge is there.
Options:
  1. Assume the bridge is there
  2. Assume the bridge is not there
  3. Conclude that "I don't know" until evidence observed that the bridge is there or not there
When the topic turns to something that is nearly impossible to verify like the belief that there is a God then I would think the only reasonable position is to believe your concept of God is wrong.
Options:
  1. Assume god/s exist
  2. Assume god/s do not exist
  3. Conclude that "I don't know" until evidence observed that god/s exist or not.
From a logical\rational point of view you cannot blithely assume either existence or non-existence when you have insufficient for making such a conclusion.
... what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by jar, posted 12-17-2014 11:12 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Jon, posted 12-17-2014 12:11 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 283 by jar, posted 12-17-2014 12:30 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 284 of 339 (744975)
12-17-2014 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Jon
12-17-2014 12:11 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix -- what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???
... what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???
Nothing.
But what is wrong with believing anyway and admitting that your belief is irrational and likely wrong?
As long as you recognize it is a belief\opinion and as long as it is not contradicted by objective empirical evidence.
And as long as you are prepared to accept contrary evidence should it become available, and change your belief\opinion, then there should not be an issue:
  1. I don't know if the bridge is there, I believe that it IS there, but I will accept evidence that it is NOT there,
  2. I don't know if the bridge is there, I believe that it is NOT there, but I will accept evidence that it IS there,
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Jon, posted 12-17-2014 12:11 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Jon, posted 12-17-2014 10:39 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 285 of 339 (744976)
12-17-2014 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by jar
12-17-2014 12:30 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix -- what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???
"I don't know." is a great position in the absence of belief and is certainly a far more reasonable and logical position that saying "I believe" but I was discussing what can be said should someone take the position of belief.
The same as someone that takes the position of non-belief (see Message 284): as long as you acknowledge that it is an opinion\belief that may be wrong I don't see any problems.
I that case it seems that the reasonable position is to assume that your belief(s) are almost certainly wrong.
How can you have any certainty when you don't know? Having certainty is illogical\irrational without evidence that would remove the doubt of not knowing.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by jar, posted 12-17-2014 12:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by jar, posted 12-17-2014 4:10 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 287 of 339 (744986)
12-17-2014 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by xongsmith
12-17-2014 3:20 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix -- what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???
In the other case, having a fairly good expectation of the bridge being there and saving you the longer route, you go to the bridge and find out that a very unlikely (in your mind) event has occurred and the bridge is gone. And you think to yourself, "Oh darn it!".
And of course, not to let the cat out of the bag, the bridge is neither there nor not there until the observation is made ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by xongsmith, posted 12-17-2014 3:20 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 291 of 339 (745043)
12-18-2014 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by jar
12-17-2014 4:10 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix -- what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???
... in Message 278 I outlined the reasoning and evidence.
Curiously that is not actual evidence that god/s do not exist. It is evidence that certain anecdotal concepts involving gods were not quite correct, that those god concepts can be allegorical rather than true representations. This is opinion not evidence.
Well I did say "almost certainly wrong" ...
And I question the basis for this "almost certainly" opinion and what gives you such a firm opinion as opposed to saying "possibly wrong" -- which is what we have with the bridge scenario:
  1. I don't know, I believe the bridge exists, but it is possibly this is wrong,
  2. I don't know, I believe the bridge does not exists, but it is possibly this is wrong,
  3. I don't know, whether the bridge exists or not, and I will await further information.
These are all open-minded skeptical positions.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by jar, posted 12-17-2014 4:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by jar, posted 12-18-2014 11:46 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 292 of 339 (745044)
12-18-2014 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Jon
12-17-2014 10:39 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix -- what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???
How can one show they are prepared to accept contrary evidence more than to think their belief is likely wrong to begin with?
Likely on what basis? Likely or probably imply some evidence of comparative likelihood\probability, some knowledge.
Or you can say it is possible that your belief is wrong.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Jon, posted 12-17-2014 10:39 PM Jon has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 294 of 339 (745046)
12-18-2014 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by ringo
12-18-2014 10:42 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix -- what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???
No, that would be disbelief. I have a lack of belief that the bridge is there. The alternate route probably also requires a bridge, and I have an equal lack of belief in that bridge.
What I do is when I get to where the bridge should be I make sure I can see it before I drive onto it. I don't "believe" it's there just because the map sez so..
By driving to the bridge you also show a lack of belief that the bridge is not there.
In other words you have not formed an opinion until you have evidence for the bridge being there or not being there. Because you don't know ...
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by ringo, posted 12-18-2014 10:42 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

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 Message 295 by NoNukes, posted 12-18-2014 12:05 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 298 of 339 (745052)
12-18-2014 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by NoNukes
12-18-2014 12:05 PM


Critical Thinking Remix Again -- what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???
This is not how anyone actually thinks. If this thinking were actually the case, people would make preparations for what they would do if the bridge were out (such as leaving home hours early, bringing some food along, etc.).
In fact, you do have an opinion about whether the bridge is there, and your opinion has a loose probability attached to it. If your understanding is that the probability of the bridge being gone is very low, then you'll act accordingly even if the penalty for being wrong is fairly high.
What I find curious in many discussions like this, is the nearly universal habit of adding criteria that support how people want the discussion to go. It is as if we are not willing to address just the bare bones arguments, but try to fit the scenario into our worldviews in a comfortable way. And the argument devolves into discussing whether or not the what ifs apply or were understood by others.
So other than logic and evidenced based (scientific) procedures I think Critical Thinking involves recognizing:
  1. when you don't know (with a lack of certainty regarding any opinions you have on the matter), and
  2. when you don't know how much you don't know (when there are resources available that would increase your general knowledge on the topic, such as on evolution).
In the first stage I not only lack belief in the bridge being there (or not being there), but I lack certainty about the condition of the bridge's existence, so I just don't know if the bridge is there or not.
In the second stage I could look up maps and articles on the bridge construction and the effect of weather on the bridge (was there a report that it was taken out by a storm). Or I could drive to the bridge.
And if there are no resources that can show the probable existence of the bridge (one way or the other), then I have to fall back on stage one: I don't know.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by NoNukes, posted 12-18-2014 12:05 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by NoNukes, posted 12-18-2014 3:26 PM RAZD has replied

  
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