Summations Only

Hi Ringo,I'm replying to this message again because it seems that the wrong point is being taken from your argument. You had said that we should take guns away from idiots, and Faith objected like this: You replied, "I don't think so," but you weren't implying that gun owners are neither responsible nor law-abiding. You were continuing with your point that most gun owners are idiots, clarifying that they're idiots because they believe guns make them safer.While I wouldn't use the term "idiots", your typical person will typically miscalculate that guns make them safer. In their mind they only imagine pulling out their gun when criminally threatened, and they never imagine little Timmy finding the gun in the nightstand, or drunk Uncle Fred waving it around as a joke at Thanksgiving, possibilities that are vastly more likely.For those who don't mind simple probabilities, try this exercise. Assuming you own a gun, what do you think are the average daily odds of something going terribly wrong and someone being killed? Would they be .001%? .0001%? .00001%? Whatever you think it is, remember that number.Now ask yourself what are the average daily odds of a criminal breaking into your house with murderous intent and you successfully defending yourself. Would they be .001%? .0001%? .00001%? Whatever you think it is, compare that number to the first number. Which is higher. If the second one is higher, guess what? You'd be wrong.The reason you'd be wrong and it's more likely that gun will be used against family and friends rather than criminals is simple. The gun is there in your house every single day, but the criminal invasion is an incredibly rare event throughout most of the US. Most of us have been in a house with a gun (whether you knew it or not), but few of us have ever been in a house when criminals broke in.--Percy

I don't pretend anything, Faith. What I hate is the mis-characterization of God you present. I know, I know... ... your beliefs are True Christianity. I get it, but I don't agree that they are. On, the other hand, if they are, I am OK with not being considered a True Christian. But this thread is not about Christianity, so I'll leave it there. Could you define "huge number?" Is 20 elementary school students a "huge" number or an insignificant number? Is 32 Virginia Tech students a "huge" number? How many innocent people need to be killed by gun violence before we decide it is time to do something; something drastic? Would you provide a number of gun deaths per year that if we reach that number you would be willing to do something drastic, even like repeal the 2nd Amendment? Would 1 million be a high enough number? 2 million? Where do we draw the line? Do you live in Mayberry? Look around; turn on the TV, try to pick a movie without violence in it, open a newspaper. Now don't anyone get me wrong, I am NOT saying that TV or any media is the CAUSE of gun violence, all of it is a symptom of our love of violence. The world would be a much better place with NO guns or weapons of any kind. Obviously, this is an unrealistic goal, but we certainly need to move in that direction NOT in the direction of MORE weapons.You believe the Bible to the letter, what do you think Jesus would say on the issue of guns? Well, let's see.

quote:

---

But I say to you that you must not oppose those who want to hurt you. If people slap you on your right cheek, you must turn the left cheek to them as well.

​

If someone slaps you on the cheek, offer the other one as well. If someone takes your coat, don’t withhold your shirt either.

​

Here’s a question for you: Is it legal on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?

​

Then Jesus said to him, Put the sword back into its place. All those who use the sword will die by the sword.

​

They said to him, Lord, look, here are two swords. He replied, Enough of that!

​

When those around him recognized what was about to happen, they said, Lord, should we fight with our swords? One of them struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear. Jesus responded, Stop! No more of this! He touched the slave’s ear and healed him.

---

So, which side of this debate do you think Jesus would side on? Where does the Bible say we need guns to protect ourselves? It's not that we need to take guns away from everyone. It's not that if you own a gun you are a bad person. But it bothers me that so many Christians are so adamantly opposed to stricter gun regulations. It bothers me that so many Christians clamor on about 2nd Amendment rights and our NEED for guns. When in fact, Christians should be at the fore-front of gun control. We should be deeply, deeply concerned about the loss of ANY innocent lives and willing to do whatever it takes to minimize the risks. And I know this is controversial, but we should even be deeply concerned about the criminals who are losing their lives due to gun violence. I am losing my trust in the greater Christian community to have a clearheaded, rational understanding of just about anything. What is it about being a Christian that would make one oppose gun control? I am beginning to think that it is because so many are simply blind to reality, caught up in their own self interests. Maybe it is that they just feel the need to oppose ANYTHING that comes from the "left" (whatever that means).HBD

Would you also find it interesting to introduce a bill defining "Speech" as being communication that existed at time? Yeah, just written and spoken words, no free speech in broadcasting or on the internet.

You're kidding me? You ranted for hundreds of posts about what a bad idea more gun control would be. You wanted to arm teachers for god's sake.

I would say it's irresponsible to have a gun in the house that's likely to do more harm than good. Even the US has laws about the civilian possession of explosives, etc.As for "law-abiding" citizens, they also turn Jews in to the Gestapo.

OK, yes I think a lot of the gun control you guys want is crazy. Prohibiting guns carried by those responsible citizens from school premises is insane because that allows the criminals to do what they have done. And prohibiting them from other places, the theater, lots of public places where they could do some good if not restricted.That doesn't mean I'm opposed to being sure that those who carry guns ARE responsible and know how to use them safely. Gun control is not the same thing as reasonable laws to ensure safety.The gun control fanatics do all the wrong things and end up giving the criminals free rein. That's what taking guns away from the good guys has done in Australia and the UK, and even restricting where they can be carried as has been done here has had the same effect. Wherever the good guys are deprived of guns the bad guys are free to do their thing.The laws should be aimed at increasing the safety practices of those qualified to carry them and disqualifying some from carrying them.

My mouse is acting up so I can't highlight passages to copy and paste. I'll try to be clear.I said I doubted the statistics about all the innocent people being killed. I meant by responsible gun owners, not by criminals. If the good guys were allowed to carry guns on school premises those twenty children might not have been killed. You are talking entirely about murders by criminals. That CANNOT be blamed on the guns. It should at least partly be blamed on the restrictions against the carrying of guns by the people who are responsible citizens.The statistics that matter have to do with the good guys and how many accidental deaths occur,. The twenty children murdered were not accidental. Nor is any murder, and judging all gun owners by the murderers is the wrong approach here. Statistics on accidental deaths may be more relevant and the response should be increased safety practices, not more restrictions.Being slapped on the cheek is an insult, not a threat to your life.The Revolutionary War was preached and fought by Christian pastors who took their guns to church with them and were among the first to fight when the war began.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

My father had guns, my ex had guns, my brother has guns. Nobody has a clue where they keep them and nobody has ever found them. Nobody even thinks about them. These men were, are, all very practiced with guns and very very safety conscious. Nobody would EVER wave a gun around at Thanksgiving in their house. I don't know what you have in mind but it is not the average responsible gun owner. The gun in the nightstand is NOT safe. Gun owners are smarter than that and they DO think about the accidents that could occur.

Examples please. During the Revolutionary War and prior, gun ownership was very low. Muskets were to expensive for the average person. Handguns were almost nonexistent.

quote:

---

while searching through over a thousand probate records from the frontier sections of New England and Pennsylvania for 1763 to 1790 -- he found that only 14 percent of the men owned guns, and over half of those guns were unusable.

---

Spiking the Gun Myth
As a matter of fact prior to civil war gun ownership was very rare.
Most of what people think they know about gun ownership in the first century of the USA is a myth.

You do not know many people do you.

QED.

So you agree that responsible gun use precludes it as being of any likely use for self defense in the case of an armed break it.

Well, I just talked to my brother and found out I don't have things right. Perhaps I've been influenced by the crowd here. He says our father's guns were always in plain sight. I never noticed them. He said we were told not to touch them and we didn't. Kids were more obedient in those days. But also I don't even remember them being there.We were all taught about how to shoot and how to carry guns safely, but only my brothers really got into it. He also said he had his own rifle around the age of six and was allowed to take it out alone and shoot targets. We lived on the Nevada desert way out in the middle of nowhere. All he had to do, he said, was tell our parents where he was going, no other restrictions. I didn't know any of that, shows you how conscious I was of what went on in the family.I gather things are enough different today that he's going to get a gun safe. He says the guns are well hidden but he doesn't trust a couple of his nine grandkids. He'll take them shooting but these two are a tad flaky and he's not sure they should be left alone with guns.And yes that does make having them available for defense problematic.Nevada is an open-carry state so he may consider doing that eventually. Right now, thanks to the gun-control fanatics, although it's perfectly legal it freaks people out and the cops don't know the law and hassle you and he doesn't want the hassle right now. He said a woman in his Bible study told how she saw a guy down town with a gun holstered on his hip and got freaked out, and my brother had to explain that she should have considered herself a lot safer with him around. He also told me some gun owners are making a conscious effort to try to educate the public about the safety of guns by open-carrying them more. They do get hassled but they know the law and the cops have to let them go. Probably if more did this people WOULD get more comfortable seeing them around.I said I can understand people getting freaked out at strangers carrying guns and I said shouldn't they wear some kind of badge or patch to let the public know what they are doing? Shouldn't there be some kind of publicity? He just said it's a legal right and that shouldn't be necessary. I may disagree with him about that. If gun controlism is getting people nervous around legal safe gun possession then some positive publicity could help.Our Dad grew up in Canada. They all had guns, all kept in plain sight. There were wild animals, there were gophers in the fields, there were even wild Indians who occasionally broke into houses. Funny to think that even wild and woolly Canada has given up their guns. Now it's the wild criminals we need to be concerned about but now, alas, no guns to do anything about it.

The grandmother who shot and almost killed her 7-year old grandson was also a gun owner (see Message 2867). Locked in a trunk in the attic for quick access, no doubt.--Percy

I mentioned the Revolutionary War preachers in answer to HBD who thinks Christians should not support gun rights as much as we do. I'm sure you've heard of the Black Robe Regiment? That was the name given to the war-preaching pastors by Great Britain, who considered their influence to have been a major factor in their losing the war. How many had guns is not really the point. Some merely preached in favor of the war, but some did possess muskets. Peter Muhlenberg is famous for preaching war from the Bible and then leading three hundred of his congregation to join the cause. HERE's a reference that looks like it may cover more of the history than some others I found. (Yes, the site is a tad odd, but it looks interesting)Edited by Faith, : No reason given.