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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 685 of 2073 (742975)
11-25-2014 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 682 by Colbard
11-25-2014 11:00 PM


Re: Belief in science
Having a whole lot of knowledge is great, and acceptable, but having a little bit of poo in science called the Theory of Evolution and its various offspring is not acceptable.
Not acceptable to who? Those who do science or those who believe in old tribal lore?
I would suggest that any idea supported by evidence, testing, and successful predictions is superior to old tribal lore whose only claim to fame is a lot of believers.
It is possible to have a perverse observational skill due to a wrong idea in the first place. Science does not disprove Creationism at all, the false conclusions of brain washed men do. It depends on how one interprets the evidence.
No, it does not depend on how one interprets the evidence. Some interpretations are clearly wrong (unsupported by the evidence).
But your real problem is that creationism does not "prove" itself, but must rely on belief, dogma, scripture and other fluff. There's no evidence that can stand up to testing. If there were, there would not be some 40,000 different brands, flavors, denominations, etc. of Christianity alone. If there were some way of testing claims with evidence you would have convergence rather than schism.
In that, religion is the exact opposite of science whether you like it or not.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 682 by Colbard, posted 11-25-2014 11:00 PM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 691 by Colbard, posted 11-25-2014 11:44 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 687 of 2073 (742977)
11-25-2014 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 686 by Colbard
11-25-2014 11:16 PM


More nonsense
True, evolution is also a religion, the ancient religion of Baal worship, which is essentially humanism, the ideas of humanity above any revelation or God.
Nonsense. Just because you see everything through the rose-colored glasses of religious belief doesn't mean others do as well.
There are a lot of folks out there who get along just fine without religion, and to call that lack of religion "a religion" is ludicrous.
It is exactly the opposite, but then that's par for the course as creation science is the exact opposite of real science.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 686 by Colbard, posted 11-25-2014 11:16 PM Colbard has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 713 of 2073 (743243)
11-28-2014 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 712 by Colbard
11-28-2014 9:37 PM


A scam for the ages
If I lived in a world of death and dysfunction, and I was offered eternal life, I would take it even if I had no proof of it, I have nothing to lose do I?
That's what makes the promise of eternal life the biggest scam ever perpetrated on humanity--by humanity.
The shamans who thought up this scam, probably millions of years ago, have been living off the ill-gotten gains ever since.
It's the ideal scam! Pay me now for what I promise that you'll get when you die.
Makes all the snake-oil salesmen throughout history look like pikers by comparison. But at least with the snake-oil salesmen you got something in return, no matter how worthless.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 712 by Colbard, posted 11-28-2014 9:37 PM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 715 by Colbard, posted 11-28-2014 10:00 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 739 of 2073 (743936)
12-06-2014 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 738 by Colbard
12-05-2014 11:24 PM


Re: Rationality about love/morality
The physical laws of life are not opinions, they depend on specifics.
You mean physical laws like those which control radiometric dating?
Or is that something different because you disagree with the results?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 738 by Colbard, posted 12-05-2014 11:24 PM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 740 by Colbard, posted 12-06-2014 5:28 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(4)
Message 742 of 2073 (743957)
12-06-2014 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 740 by Colbard
12-06-2014 5:28 AM


Re: More nonsense about dating
Coyote writes:
You mean physical laws like those which control radiometric dating?
Or is that something different because you disagree with the results?
There are too many other factors that disagree with the results, which I don't want to talk about on this thread.
You don't want to talk about those "factors" because you have nothing. That article on radiocarbon dating you referenced is pure wishful thinking and nonsense.
But, if you are silly enough to want to present some of your "evidence" that all of these dating methods are wrong, there is a thread dedicated to just that one subject:
Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1
I'd recommend that you read that thread first, then let's see what you got. But please, don't just copy some nonsense from a creationist website somewhere--when it comes to radiometric dating they will lie to you.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 740 by Colbard, posted 12-06-2014 5:28 AM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 745 by Colbard, posted 12-07-2014 4:16 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 753 of 2073 (744007)
12-07-2014 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 745 by Colbard
12-07-2014 4:16 AM


Re: Nonsense is the word
OK, we get the fact that you are anti-science, and you put belief over evidence. You have shown that in a number of different ways.
Without evidence, why should we accept a single thing you have to say? Given that you are literally preaching your belief, rather than presenting evidence, perhaps you should end each post with "Amen!"
And I can just imagine the "scientific" curriculum you would advocate based on your beliefs. You'd probably want to begin each lesson with "Hallelujah!"
===========
On a slightly different subject:
According to David Barrett et al, editors of the World Christian Encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions - AD 30 to 2200, there are 19 major world religions which are subdivided into a total of 270 large religious groups, and many smaller ones. 34,000 separate Christian groups have been identified in the world. "Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations." Religions of the world: numbers of adherents; growth rates
Why are there so many different religions, and so many separate branches of Christianity?
It is because, like you, they rely on faith, dogma, scripture, revelation and other squishy sources of information, rather upon verifiable evidence. If two groups disagree on some point there is no reliable way to judge which is correct, so you have schism.
Science is just the opposite. When there are competing hypotheses, it is the evidence, and testing of predictions against the evidence, which determines whether one is more correct than the other. Eventually you end up with a single theory explaining a given set of facts.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 745 by Colbard, posted 12-07-2014 4:16 AM Colbard has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 791 of 2073 (744135)
12-08-2014 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 790 by RAZD
12-08-2014 11:46 AM


Re: Nonsense is the word
Message 114 - Claims first heard about evolution in 1946 ... so I don't think 30 is right either.
Message 599: I was eleven years old in year 7 ... The items tested for age were numbered and could have been mixed up. I did not care really.
And radiocarbon dating was invented in the very late 1940s, and didn't become commonly available until about the mid-1950s.
If he first heard about evolution in 1946, that supposes an age of at least 6 or 8. So, at what age in school did the famous coin dating experiment take place then? (This is all very confusing.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 790 by RAZD, posted 12-08-2014 11:46 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 807 of 2073 (744244)
12-09-2014 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 800 by Colbard
12-09-2014 8:38 AM


Re: Carbon dating coins
Carbon dating is the holy grail of evolution. It's entire structure rests on that poor brick, and many other poor foundations like it have been buttressed to keep the confounded thing from looking unsupported.
Radiocarbon dating was invented close to a hundred years after evolution.
And it is but one of many dating techniques used in various sciences. And it is not used to establish the maximum age of the earth--just a minimum age. But that's no problem. All of the dating techniques disprove the young earth idea.
So why not introduce the topic of dating with a holed story? It's a perfect mockery in return for the instant rebuttals of anything that comes near this tottering mess called evolution.
Face it, you really didn't know any better than to try to peddle the story of radiocarbon dating a coin.
You could have come up with a far better creationist tale than that though. How about the natural gas from Mississippi that was misdated? Or the coal from Russia? Those are creationist favorites, and can be found all over the web and in their literature.
But then: Has radiocarbon dating been invalidated by unreasonable results?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 800 by Colbard, posted 12-09-2014 8:38 AM Colbard has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 821 of 2073 (744352)
12-10-2014 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 820 by Colbard
12-10-2014 7:22 AM


Re: Evidence is in the mind
Your posts, rather than supporting the creationist cause, will likely have the opposite effect.
Irrationality is not a trait that is generally admired.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 820 by Colbard, posted 12-10-2014 7:22 AM Colbard has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 883 of 2073 (744706)
12-14-2014 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 880 by Colbard
12-14-2014 6:13 PM


Re: A Q of authority
The main difference between genuine Christian believers and the world in general is that they consider the Bible as the word of God, an authority above man made theories and conclusions.
They're wrong.
The first evidence that the true believer has is the word of God and everything else has to be tested by it.
"The Bible is such a gargantuan collection of conflicting values that anyone can prove anything from it." Robert A. Heinlein
The world on the other hand puts the opinions and conclusions of man above revelation and God. So there is no harmony there.
It does not mean that science cannot be married to creationism, it just means that the conclusions drawn which contradict the Bible have to be left out.
That means that you will ignore any evidence that contradicts your ancient tribal myths. If this is the case, you have absolutely no business even mentioning the word, "Science" let alone pretending that anything you do resembles the scientific method. What you are doing is exactly the opposite of science.
If I were to talk about global flood dynamics, the Bible would be my first and only reference, which has authority over and above the world. It does not matter if other thoughts and conclusions disagree with it.
What the bible says was disproved 200 years ago, and the evidence since that date has must made that disproof even more devastating.
I believe that if we place our opinions above nature or God then we are kidding ourselves.
Scientists do not put their "opinions" (more accurately, their theories) above what the natural world shows. Rather they base their theories directly on what the natural world shows no matter what old tribal myths claim. You are the one who is placing your myths above nature.
It would be pointless for me to talk about the global flood if my references from the Bible are considered to be of no value.
Hey, you're a good sport after all!
Having talked about it to other audiences, I am aware that the majority, if not all, are incapable of comprehending what I say, it is a matter of intelligence capacities.
It is a matter of putting old stories above the evidence that's all around you and that can be easily verified. And it is not a matter of intelligence capabilities--you are perfectly capable of seeing what is around you, but you have willfully put on blinders, and won't see that which you don't want to see. Willful ignorance is not a trait that is admired.
I know that sounds narcissistic and arrogant, and even insane...
Yes, I guess you know best.
In regards to the outrageous claims, they are very obvious to anyone who has studied the scriptures.
True. There are many outrageous claims in scriptures, and many of those have long-since been disproved.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 880 by Colbard, posted 12-14-2014 6:13 PM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 884 by Colbard, posted 12-15-2014 6:46 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 897 of 2073 (745443)
12-22-2014 10:52 PM


Donald E. Johnson?
Perhaps you need a more reliable source.
Encyclopedia of American Loons: #807: Donald E. Johnson
Might I suggest a source with a very similar name, Donald Johanson:
Biographies: Donald Johanson

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Replies to this message:
 Message 898 by Rodnas, posted 12-23-2014 9:25 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 952 of 2073 (808072)
05-08-2017 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 951 by Davidjay
05-08-2017 11:47 AM


Re: Creation is taught by sneaky tricks
Of course evolution should not be forced on students in school.
And of course creationists want their odd brand of religion taught in schools and have been using all manner of sneaky tricks to get that done--in violation of law.
Remember Dover and "cdesign proponentsists?"
Of Pandas and People - Wikipedia

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 951 by Davidjay, posted 05-08-2017 11:47 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 953 by Davidjay, posted 05-08-2017 11:55 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 954 of 2073 (808109)
05-08-2017 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 953 by Davidjay
05-08-2017 11:55 AM


Wrong again
No keep, schools for knowledge rather than theories. Teach facts and separate religion and the state.
Another creationist "talking point." And a false one. Theories are the highest level of explanation in science. Theories organize and explain facts.
Coyotes in the wild are really out of tune...
Still another example of how wrong you are. Coyotes are smarter than wolves. Just look around the lower 48 states--wolves are extinct in most places, while coyotes are dining on Beverly Hills poodles!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 953 by Davidjay, posted 05-08-2017 11:55 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 996 of 2073 (827023)
01-15-2018 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 985 by creation
01-14-2018 11:37 PM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
In the "Separate school and state and religion" thread you posted:
Mainly, that that method does not cover creation or the far past.
Presumably you feel religion better covers creation and the far past. In response, RAZD noted:
There are an estimated 10,000 distinct religions worldwide,[9] but about 84% of the world's population is affiliated with one of the five largest religions, namely Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism or forms of folk religion.[10] The religiously unaffiliated demographic includes those who do not identify with any particular religion, atheists and agnostics. While the religiously unaffiliated have grown globally, many of the religiously unaffiliated still have various religious beliefs.[11]
So, which of these 10,000 or more religions do you want taught? Yours, perhaps?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 985 by creation, posted 01-14-2018 11:37 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 997 by Pressie, posted 01-16-2018 5:49 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 1000 by creation, posted 01-16-2018 9:52 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1001 of 2073 (827054)
01-16-2018 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1000 by creation
01-16-2018 9:52 AM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
Anything but the religion of science!
Typical creationist response.
Science disproves a lot of your religious beliefs, so it has to be discredited or destroyed.
Guess you want a return to the dark ages or something pre-Enlightenment where religion ruled the roost and science had to kowtow to the shamans.
Those days are gone for good (and I do mean good).

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1000 by creation, posted 01-16-2018 9:52 AM creation has not replied

  
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