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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1036 of 2241 (745891)
12-28-2014 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1031 by Faith
12-28-2014 4:42 PM


Re: Tradition
Faith writes:
Faith is always based on evidence, despite what Phat says.
Faith is not based on evidence. You're strange definition is just another a peculiar claim of fundamentalist Christianity. They say their faith is evidence-based, then point to non-existent evidence. Their faith has no more evidence than any other religion. They just like to claim they have evidence.
When you have evidence of the virgin birth you let us know.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1031 by Faith, posted 12-28-2014 4:42 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1037 by jar, posted 12-28-2014 8:58 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1038 by GDR, posted 12-28-2014 9:55 PM Percy has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1037 of 2241 (745892)
12-28-2014 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1036 by Percy
12-28-2014 8:43 PM


or of Jesus
Percy writes:
When you have evidence of the virgin birth you let us know.
Or that Jesus ever existed regardless of virgin or normal birth.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1036 by Percy, posted 12-28-2014 8:43 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1041 by Phat, posted 12-29-2014 7:35 AM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1038 of 2241 (745893)
12-28-2014 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1036 by Percy
12-28-2014 8:43 PM


Re: Tradition
Percy writes:
When you have evidence of the virgin birth you let us know.
The Bible is evidence. Somebody wrote those books, and I realize that all sorts of things are written that we know to be false, but still it is evidence. I agree that there is no collaborating evidence.
We can look at the evidence that is the Bible on its own and form our own conclusions which we have all done. If the evidence that is the Bible didn't exist then we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1036 by Percy, posted 12-28-2014 8:43 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1039 by jar, posted 12-28-2014 11:03 PM GDR has replied
 Message 1040 by Percy, posted 12-28-2014 11:43 PM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1039 of 2241 (745894)
12-28-2014 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1038 by GDR
12-28-2014 9:55 PM


Re: Tradition
Would you agree then that the Book of the Dead is equally strong evidence of Toth and Seth?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1038 by GDR, posted 12-28-2014 9:55 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1047 by GDR, posted 12-29-2014 10:21 AM jar has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1040 of 2241 (745895)
12-28-2014 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1038 by GDR
12-28-2014 9:55 PM


Re: Tradition
GDR writes:
The Bible is evidence.
In the only context where this can be a correct statement, everything is evidence. In the context of religions of the world, most religions include articles of faith for which there is no hard evidence, and Christianity is no different. If I wasn't explicit enough, I was asking for positive supporting evidence of the virgin birth.
I agree that there is no collaborating evidence.
Yes, exactly.
As the Wikipedia article on the Virgin Birth of Jesus states, "the modern scholarly consensus is that it rests 'on very slim historical foundations.'" (see Matthew: The Christbook, Matthew 1-12, page 37)
Faith just likes to say her faith is supported by evidence. When pressed her evidence becomes church traditions or the fact that millions have believed this or that over the centuries. If millions believing something was acceptable evidence then OJ would be in prison for murder.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1038 by GDR, posted 12-28-2014 9:55 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1049 by GDR, posted 12-29-2014 10:33 AM Percy has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1041 of 2241 (745899)
12-29-2014 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1037 by jar
12-28-2014 8:58 PM


Re: or of Jesus
How could a True Christian doubt the existence of Christ?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1037 by jar, posted 12-28-2014 8:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1042 by jar, posted 12-29-2014 7:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1071 by ringo, posted 12-30-2014 10:45 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1042 of 2241 (745901)
12-29-2014 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1041 by Phat
12-29-2014 7:35 AM


Re: or of Jesus
Phat writes:
How could a True Christian doubt the existence of Christ?
Well the only requirement to be a "True Christian" is that the person is a member of any chapter of Club Christian; even the small unrecognized splinter chapters.
An honest Christian though must acknowledge that there is no external to the Bible evidence that Jesus ever existed while there is external evidence that the Buddha existed even though the Buddha lived and taught about 500 years earlier than Jesus.
An honest Christian must admit that any belief that Jesus existed is solely a matter of faith and unsupported by any more evidence than is available for the existence of Toth or Seth or Raven or Thor or Coyote or Ganesha or hundreds of other deities.
An honest Christian must admit that his beliefs, even if strongly held, might well be wrong.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1041 by Phat, posted 12-29-2014 7:35 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1043 by Percy, posted 12-29-2014 9:24 AM jar has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1043 of 2241 (745903)
12-29-2014 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1042 by jar
12-29-2014 7:58 AM


Re: or of Jesus
jar writes:
An honest Christian must admit that his beliefs, even if strongly held, might well be wrong.
Or maybe he could understand that his faith is not supported by evidence, may even be contradicted by it, but believe it anyway.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1042 by jar, posted 12-29-2014 7:58 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1044 by jar, posted 12-29-2014 9:33 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1045 by Larni, posted 12-29-2014 9:34 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1044 of 2241 (745905)
12-29-2014 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1043 by Percy
12-29-2014 9:24 AM


Re: or of Jesus
Percy writes:
Or maybe he could understand that his faith is not supported by evidence, may even be contradicted by it, but believe it anyway.
The latter gets into an area that I think requires elaboration; if there is evidence that contradicts a belief and the person wants to remain honest I believe they must also openly acknowledge that the evidence contradicts the belief. They would have to say that their belief is held in spite of all the evidence that refutes such a position.
If they try to wave away the evidence or deny the evidence exists then I do not see how they could be considered as honest Christians.
The former though is, I believe, a pretty accurate description of what faith means when it comes to things like religious beliefs; a belief in things unseen and unevidenced.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1043 by Percy, posted 12-29-2014 9:24 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 1045 of 2241 (745906)
12-29-2014 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1043 by Percy
12-29-2014 9:24 AM


Re: or of Jesus
Or maybe he could understand that his faith is not supported by evidence, may even be contradicted by it, but believe it anyway.
But then he or she is not being (intellectually) honest. The person is going with their feelings, rather than rationality.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1043 by Percy, posted 12-29-2014 9:24 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1046 by jar, posted 12-29-2014 9:37 AM Larni has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1046 of 2241 (745907)
12-29-2014 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1045 by Larni
12-29-2014 9:34 AM


Re: or of Jesus
But then he or she is not being (intellectually) honest. The person is going with their feelings, rather than rationality.
Rationality plays almost no part in beliefs. There's no rational reason that I love ice cream but hate pudding, love beef but hate liver.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1045 by Larni, posted 12-29-2014 9:34 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1060 by Larni, posted 12-29-2014 3:13 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1047 of 2241 (745909)
12-29-2014 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1039 by jar
12-28-2014 11:03 PM


Re: Tradition
tc writes:
Would you agree then that the Book of the Dead is equally strong evidence of Toth and Seth?
It is evidence but I wouldn't agree that it is as strong.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1039 by jar, posted 12-28-2014 11:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1048 by jar, posted 12-29-2014 10:24 AM GDR has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1048 of 2241 (745910)
12-29-2014 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1047 by GDR
12-29-2014 10:21 AM


Re: Tradition
It is evidence but I wouldn't agree that it is as strong.
Why not? The tradition certainly goes back thousands of years before Jesus and the worship of Toth and Seth went on for longer than Christianity has been around.
Why is it not equally strong evidence?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1047 by GDR, posted 12-29-2014 10:21 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1049 of 2241 (745911)
12-29-2014 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1040 by Percy
12-28-2014 11:43 PM


Re: Tradition
Percy writes:
In the only context where this can be a correct statement, everything is evidence. In the context of religions of the world, most religions include articles of faith for which there is no hard evidence, and Christianity is no different. If I wasn't explicit enough, I was asking for positive supporting evidence of the virgin birth.
There is no hard evidence however somebody wrote the Gospels and we come to our own conclusions as to whether or not to accept it as historical, metaphorical, partly true or of no substance whatsoever.
The claim had been that there was no evidence. The mention of the virgin birth in two of the Gospels is the only evidence we have, but it is evidence. There is no other supporting evidence that I know of.
Percy writes:
Faith just likes to say her faith is supported by evidence. When pressed her evidence becomes church traditions or the fact that millions have believed this or that over the centuries. If millions believing something was acceptable evidence then OJ would be in prison for murder.
Essentially I agree, however in defence of Faith, it does suggest that we give it closer scrutiny than jar's "Book of the Dead" due only to the fact that there is a large segment of the population believes the one and nobody that I have ever heard of believes the other.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1040 by Percy, posted 12-28-2014 11:43 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1056 by Percy, posted 12-29-2014 12:44 PM GDR has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1050 of 2241 (745912)
12-29-2014 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1023 by NoNukes
12-28-2014 2:39 PM


Re: what is scripture?
NoNukes writes:
The sole criteria is to find which position is most likely correct.
Let's recap: If there is no evidence that John existed, we can not reasonably conclude that he wrote the books attributed to him. Even if there is evidence that John existed, we would still need independent evidence that he wrote the books attributed to him. In the absence of adequate reliable evidence, Mr. Occam suggests that we should not speculate about what other evidence "might" exist; rather we should err on the side of caution and conclude that the documents are not authentic (innocent of authenticity until proven guilty).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1023 by NoNukes, posted 12-28-2014 2:39 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1052 by NoNukes, posted 12-29-2014 10:55 AM ringo has replied
 Message 1058 by Golffly, posted 12-29-2014 1:47 PM ringo has replied

  
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