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Author Topic:   Pope John Paul II address to the Papal Academy of Sciences
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 1494
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 2 of 16 (74340)
12-19-2003 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Apostle
12-19-2003 3:57 PM


Rhetorical Questions
Apostle claims:
quote:
I do expect more from the Pope. He is a man of great courage and for him to show such weakness makes me think that it would have been better for him not to comment at all.
Would it ever occur to you that the Pope might have a much stronger faith than you? Is it possible that a mature believer could consider the evidence for macroevolution and come to an informed decision without abandoning his religion? Are you accusing prominent biologists like Kenneth Miller and Terry Gray of being bad Christians because what they see in the lab every day tells them that all life shares common ancestry? Isn't your faith pretty weak if it can't survive contact with reality?

------------------
The dark nursery of evolution is very dark indeed.
Brad McFall


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Apostle, posted 12-19-2003 3:57 PM Apostle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Apostle, posted 12-21-2003 12:46 PM MrHambre has responded

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 1494
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 6 of 16 (74645)
12-22-2003 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Apostle
12-21-2003 12:46 PM


Re: Rhetorical Questions
Apostle,

Why should the Pope condemn any theory of evolution? What scientific basis do you have for claiming that evolution is not a valid construct?

You should have some courage yourself and tell us what Christians should believe concerning evolution. I've given you examples of Christians (Kenneth Miller and Terry Gray) who not only understand the facts about evolution, but have made names for themselves in the field of evolutionary biology. Since the creationist thrives on the assumption that evolution and religious belief are incompatible, I wonder what you make of this simple fact: many, many believers accept the scientific evidence of common descent without any effect on their faith.

------------------
The dark nursery of evolution is very dark indeed.
Brad McFall


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Apostle, posted 12-21-2003 12:46 PM Apostle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Apostle, posted 12-26-2003 12:35 AM MrHambre has responded

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 1494
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 9 of 16 (75235)
12-26-2003 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Apostle
12-26-2003 12:35 AM


Re: Rhetorical Questions
Apostle,

I assume you mean you agree with The General's manifesto on Biblical Creationism, which is all religious and philosophical theorizing completely devoid of any scientific support. Why do you even mention 'facts' if this constitutes your viewpoint?

I told you there are believers who accept the scientific explanation for the diversity and complexity of life on Earth. The successful research that Kenneth Miller and Terry Gray have performed in the field of cell biology has not made them less devout Christians. You have made the choice to refuse to accept the validity of a scientific theory on the grounds that your beliefs won't allow it. I assert that you're proposing a false dichotomy between religious faith and scientific understanding.

Either accept all the facts or admit that you've chosen to refuse them. People can be scientifically educated and still be devout believers. If you're satisfied with shouting that evolution is a lie because God says so, don't be surprised when plenty of folks (believers included) disagree with you.

------------------
The dark nursery of evolution is very dark indeed.
Brad McFall


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Apostle, posted 12-26-2003 12:35 AM Apostle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Apostle, posted 04-03-2004 12:58 PM MrHambre has responded
 Message 15 by RAZD, posted 04-06-2004 1:24 AM MrHambre has not yet responded

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 1494
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 12 of 16 (97660)
04-04-2004 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Apostle
04-03-2004 12:58 PM


Even the Pope Knows Creationism Is Not Science
Apostle,

Instead of sticking around and trying to engage us, you just seem to want to post your ramblings and then leave. The post with which you take issue is over three months old. If I misrepresent your position, it's because I can't figure out what you're saying.

What is your issue with the theory of evolution by natural selection? In this thread you have referred to it as a false hypothesis, and as unscientific. You stated that the Pope should declare that the theory of evolution (as stated by Dawkins, Futuyma, et. al.) is unacceptable to the Catholic Church. However, you also say you accept everything except macroevolution. You say that believers can be scientifically knowledgeable, but that if they accept the validity of evolutionary theory, there is a conflict there.

Ths issue is this: there can't be two sciences, one for believers and one for non-believers. There's only one methodology for guiding responsible scientific inquiry. I wrote a post on this subject recently, and maybe you should read it if you're unaware of the requirements of scientific method. You have the right to believe anything you like, but you can't call it scientific unless it explains the evidence through testable, verifiable mechanisms and controlled research. There are millions of believers who accept the validity of evolution on scientific grounds, and aren't very concerned that people like Apostle have a problem with that.

regards,
Esteban Hambre


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Apostle, posted 04-03-2004 12:58 PM Apostle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Apostle, posted 04-06-2004 1:12 AM MrHambre has not yet responded

  
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