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Author | Topic: Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1604 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Faith writes: Isaac is called Abraham's only son --> emblematic or prophetic of God's only Son who would appear almost 2000 years later isaac is not abraham's only son. or even his first son. isaac is in fact his second son. it's a theme in genesis (in the J source in particular) that the first son is passed over for the inheritance. note also that isaac is the one being saved. if anything is emblematic of christ, it should be the ram, and not isaac. we are the ones being saved by substition: we're isaac.
Abraham's name means father --> emblematic or prophetic of God the Father's sacrifice of His only Son to come almost 2000 years later "father of many", again, not just one son. abraham is named because he is the father (ab) of many (hamon) nations.
Abraham had every intention of sacrificing Isaac, there is no doubt about that, and would have if God hadn't stopped him --> emblematic or prophetic of God's actually sacrificing His Son almost 2000 years later. in the one above, you appeal to jewish tradition. jewish tradition regards this passage as meaning that human sacrifice is abhorrent.
Abraham, according to Hebrews 11, believed God would raise Isaac from the dead. there are lots of themes in christianity about conquering death, resurrection, etc. there aren't so many in first temple judaism (when this text was written), and you don't get them until the temple is destroyed. it is unsurprising to see christianity frame the story this way.
This is also implicit in Genesis 22 because he was committed to going through with sacrificing Isaac, and yet he believed God's promise to him that He would bring a great nation out of Isaac. There is no other possible resolution of these two facts except that he must have expected God to resurrect him no, you missed one. abraham may not have thought he was the right isaac. god tells him that his (barren) wife will become pregnant, and to call that child isaac, and he'll bless abraham's line through isaac. but... sarah actually gets pregnant right after spending the night with abimelech. abraham may have thought isaac wasn't his.
The cross is a vertical representation of the altars of sacrifice which were used throughout the Old Testament this simply isn't true. we know exactly what ancient canaanite and israelite altars looked like from archaeology (i lump them together because they happen to be identical). they are stout, square pillars, with a prong at each corner. stone ones sometimes had fire pits. wood ones aren't well documented. sometimes they are on raised platforms. there is, in fact, a description of yahweh's official altar in the bible:
quote: now, i realize that's a boring part of the bible, so most people skip it. but does that sound like a cross, to you? worse is the fact that roman crosses actually aren't particularly cross-shaped. a better image in the old testament is the nehushtan. but you're not going to like the connotations there.
Abraham was told to perform this sacrifice in the region of Moriah on a particular mountain which God would reveal to him. It was a threshingfloor on Mt. Moriah in what was by then the city of Jerusalem that some nine hundred years later was bought by King David for a place to erect an altar for burnt offerings (2 Samuel 24). Its identity is revealed later, in 2 Chronicles 3:1:
quote: i think you've misunderstood something. mt. moriah is revealed as the temple mount -- the location of the first temple. the "house of yahweh" that solomon builds there is the first temple. the second temple, which existed in jesus's day, was located there, and the islamic holy site the dome of the rock is located there today. jesus was not crucified in the temple. the synoptics name the place "golgotha" (and not the temple mount), and john says it is "near the city" (the temple mount was inside the city).
At the very least Jesus was crucified in the same general area of Moriah where Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac was to be enacted. jerusalem, yes.
When God stops Abraham from killing Isaac, He shows him a ram caught in a thicket which he can use for the sacrifice instead. This is exactly what Abraham himself had prophesied when he told Isaac on the way to Moriah that God would provide Himself a lamb to sacrifice. Which he must have expected to happen since he expected God to raise Isaac from the dead so was abraham lying about the animal? and in all of this, you somehow missed that the crown of thorns is clearly playing on the thicket?
Of course I think these are marvelous "coincidences" that span almost 2000 years of history, that could only have been engineered by God since the human participants had no way of doing it or even recognizing it at the time. sure they did: the people writing the new testament had read the old testament.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Faith writes: This is exactly what Abraham himself had prophesied when he told Isaac on the way to Moriah that God would provide Himself a lamb to sacrifice. Which he must have expected to happen since he expected God to raise Isaac from the dead arachnophilia writes: so was abraham lying about the animal? Faith's post is way more convoluted than you suggest here. According to Faith, the lamb was required because Isaac was going to be resurrected. So apparently, Isaac's resurrection would invalidate the sacrifice requiring another lamb. Surely that's not the lesson here?
no, you missed one. abraham may not have thought he was the right isaac. Missed only one? So there were only one (or two) ways God could have worked through this? Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1705 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
As I said, Isaac is CALLED (by God in Genesis 22) Abraham's only son.
A slab with four corners to which the sacrifice was lashed is the model for the cross. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1604 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
NoNukes writes: Missed only one? So there were only one (or two) ways God could have worked through this? no, i mean, other ways to read it.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1604 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Faith writes: As I said, Isaac is CALLED (by God in Genesis 22) Abraham's only son. presumably because ishmael was sent away. (and maybe dead?)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1705 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Perhaps because he was sent away but certainly because Isaac was the son God promised him, and calling him his only son is what makes the parallel with Christ.
And you make a lot of other silly remarks. The sacrifice is the atonement, Isaac represented the atonement, then the ram took his place. And I see NN is continuing to say a bunch of weird unrecognizable things about what I said about the lamb, but perhaps I'll be better able to think about all this later.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1604 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Faith writes: Perhaps because he was sent away but certainly because Isaac was the son God promised him, and calling him his only son is what makes the parallel with Christ. so jesus has half-brothers that don't really count? i mean, i'll grant you that based on the text of the old testament, where the sons (plural) of god literally make several appearances. i just didn't think you'd want to actually argue that jesus had brothers.
And you make a lot of other silly remarks. The sacrifice is the atonement, Isaac represented the atonement, then the ram took his place. correct, and in christianity, jesus is sacrificed instead of us. our deaths are commanded, but he takes our place. making him the ram, not isaac.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Maybe if I say less, you'll understand more.
Your claim is that Abraham prophetically spoke of a lamb that would be provided, and was provided. Abraham you say, knew that after he killed Isaac, Isaac would be resurrected. Assume all of that to be correct. Why would Abraham need to make a second sacrifice simply because Isaac was resurrected? On the other hand, we know why a lamb would be needed if Isaac was not killed at all? Isaac was not atoning for any sin, so it is not a matter of Isaac's insufficiency. Your scenario makes no sense at all.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1705 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The point, Arach, is that God called Isaac Abraham's only son. There is no other point. Jesus was God's only Son, "only-begotten Son," you know, as scripture says. Mary had other sons but God had only one. So to say that Isaac was Abraham's only son is to make a parallel with God's only Son. It's not rocket science.
Genesis 22:2: And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1705 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The lamb was referred to prophetically because it was fulfilled in the ram in the thicket.
I believe I've said I'm not clear about it otherwise. Abraham said it to Isaac, it was fulfilled in the ram, that much is true. We know from Hebrews 11 and, as I've shown, it must be inferred from Genesis 22, that Abraham expected Isaac to be resurrected. I don't see any way to doubt that. How the statement about the lamb fits in I don't know for sure but the above are facts. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
The lamb was referred to prophetically because it was fulfilled in the ram in the thicket. Yet you cannot make sense of why the ram would be needed.
How the statement about the lamb fits in I don't know for sure but the above are facts Well, facts intermingled with your interpretation. For example:
and, as I've shown, it must be inferred from Genesis 22 You have not shown any such thing. You've asserted that yours is the only possible interpretation, but you cannot explain where the alternatives you've been offered break down.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Abraham's only son is to make a parallel with God's only Son. It's not rocket science. The problem with your statement is that the parallel is not true. Apparently nothing stops prophecy. Not even the facts.
Mary had other sons but God had only one. Right, and we don't call Jesus "Mary's only son" despite the fact that the other sons have paternity differs from that of Jesus. Not sure what point you can make by drawing Mary into things. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Golffly Member (Idle past 3341 days) Posts: 287 Joined: |
While it is interesting to see the guess work involved in trying to make the bible fit what we want it to say, that is mostly an example of the fruitfulness of the human imagination.
The problems of the bible occur with mostly what it actual says, as opposed to what we wish it would say if we wrote it. So what it actually says.I pointed out that god didn't approve of human sacrifice but then changed his mind and did approve or allow it. Oh, also is incest also a prophecy or some type of symbolism? Staying with Abe, as was pointed out here earlier, he marries his half sister Sarah.The righteous man Lot screws his daughters. And if a person thinks about it, Adam and Eve's first grand children come from an incestuous relationship. Leviticus later condemns incest with death.The idea that an all knowing being changes his mind is ripe for a discussion in and of itself. But why does god approve incest, only to later not approve of it? Edited by Golffly, : Addition
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1705 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Right, and we don't call Jesus "Mary's only son" despite the fact that the other sons have paternity differs from that of Jesus. Not sure what point you can make by drawing Mary into things. It wasn't addressed to you so it might be best if you stayed out of it. Arach kept objecting to the idea that Isaac parallels Jesus based onJesus having brothers, insisting that Isaac also had a brother so the parallel I was making is wrong. But it is God who says Isaac is Abraham's only son, and that is what makes the parallel with God's having only one Son. It is Mary who had the other sons, not God. This is really very clear, NN, it must take some kind of extra effort to come up with an objection to it. All the parallels between the sacrifice of Isaac and the sacrifice of Christ are quite clear, and again, this IS the orthodox understanding of the passage. It reaches way beyond the event itself into the future.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1705 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I think I just figured out what your problem is. When I say that the lamb was prophetic of the ram in the thicket you think I'm saying Abraham knew there would be a ram in the thicket. But I am not saying that. I think Abraham made the prophecy in spite of himself. The commentaries seem to believe it was a direct prophecy of Christ, since the Messiah was expected by all believers back to Eden.
I did indeed show that Abraham's expectation that God would raise Isaac from the dead is implicit in Genesis 22, I went through it at least twice and here it is again: Abraham believed God that He would make Abraham the father of a great nation through Isaac. Believing that, he would have to believe that Isaac would survive the sacrifice. At the same time Abraham fully intended to go through with the sacrifice and take Isaac's life. When he raised the knife it was with this full intention. Putting those two facts together we can only conclude that Abraham expected God to raise Isaac from the dead. And Hebrews 11 confirms it. You complain but don't offer any other possible explanation. There isn't one.
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