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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 1531 of 2241 (747164)
01-12-2015 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1502 by Faith
01-12-2015 11:35 AM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
Faith writes:
Isaac is called Abraham's only son --> emblematic or prophetic of God's only Son who would appear almost 2000 years later
isaac is not abraham's only son. or even his first son. isaac is in fact his second son. it's a theme in genesis (in the J source in particular) that the first son is passed over for the inheritance.
note also that isaac is the one being saved. if anything is emblematic of christ, it should be the ram, and not isaac. we are the ones being saved by substition: we're isaac.
Abraham's name means father --> emblematic or prophetic of God the Father's sacrifice of His only Son to come almost 2000 years later
"father of many", again, not just one son. abraham is named because he is the father (ab) of many (hamon) nations.
Abraham had every intention of sacrificing Isaac, there is no doubt about that, and would have if God hadn't stopped him --> emblematic or prophetic of God's actually sacrificing His Son almost 2000 years later.
in the one above, you appeal to jewish tradition. jewish tradition regards this passage as meaning that human sacrifice is abhorrent.
Abraham, according to Hebrews 11, believed God would raise Isaac from the dead.
there are lots of themes in christianity about conquering death, resurrection, etc. there aren't so many in first temple judaism (when this text was written), and you don't get them until the temple is destroyed. it is unsurprising to see christianity frame the story this way.
This is also implicit in Genesis 22 because he was committed to going through with sacrificing Isaac, and yet he believed God's promise to him that He would bring a great nation out of Isaac. There is no other possible resolution of these two facts except that he must have expected God to resurrect him
no, you missed one. abraham may not have thought he was the right isaac. god tells him that his (barren) wife will become pregnant, and to call that child isaac, and he'll bless abraham's line through isaac. but... sarah actually gets pregnant right after spending the night with abimelech. abraham may have thought isaac wasn't his.
The cross is a vertical representation of the altars of sacrifice which were used throughout the Old Testament
this simply isn't true. we know exactly what ancient canaanite and israelite altars looked like from archaeology (i lump them together because they happen to be identical). they are stout, square pillars, with a prong at each corner. stone ones sometimes had fire pits. wood ones aren't well documented. sometimes they are on raised platforms. there is, in fact, a description of yahweh's official altar in the bible:
quote:
And thou shalt make the altar of acacia-wood, five cubits long, and five cubits broad; the altar shall be four-square; and the height thereof shall be three cubits. And thou shalt make the horns of it upon the four corners thereof; the horns thereof shall be of one piece with it; and thou shalt overlay it with brass. And thou shalt make its pots to take away its ashes, and its shovels, and its basins, and its flesh-hooks, and its fire-pans; all the vessels thereof thou shalt make of brass. And thou shalt make for it a grating of network of brass; and upon the net shalt thou make four brazen rings in the four corners thereof. And thou shalt put it under the ledge round the altar beneath, that the net may reach halfway up the altar. And thou shalt make staves for the altar, staves of acacia-wood, and overlay them with brass. And the staves thereof shall be put into the rings, and the staves shall be upon the two sides of the altar, in bearing it. Hollow with planks shalt thou make it; as it hath been shown thee in the mount, so shall they make it. (Exodus 27:1-8)
now, i realize that's a boring part of the bible, so most people skip it. but does that sound like a cross, to you? worse is the fact that roman crosses actually aren't particularly cross-shaped. a better image in the old testament is the nehushtan. but you're not going to like the connotations there.
Abraham was told to perform this sacrifice in the region of Moriah on a particular mountain which God would reveal to him. It was a threshingfloor on Mt. Moriah in what was by then the city of Jerusalem that some nine hundred years later was bought by King David for a place to erect an altar for burnt offerings (2 Samuel 24). Its identity is revealed later, in 2 Chronicles 3:1:
quote:
Then Solomon began to build the house of the LORD at Jerusalem in mount Moriah...
i think you've misunderstood something. mt. moriah is revealed as the temple mount -- the location of the first temple. the "house of yahweh" that solomon builds there is the first temple. the second temple, which existed in jesus's day, was located there, and the islamic holy site the dome of the rock is located there today. jesus was not crucified in the temple. the synoptics name the place "golgotha" (and not the temple mount), and john says it is "near the city" (the temple mount was inside the city).
At the very least Jesus was crucified in the same general area of Moriah where Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac was to be enacted.
jerusalem, yes.
When God stops Abraham from killing Isaac, He shows him a ram caught in a thicket which he can use for the sacrifice instead. This is exactly what Abraham himself had prophesied when he told Isaac on the way to Moriah that God would provide Himself a lamb to sacrifice. Which he must have expected to happen since he expected God to raise Isaac from the dead
so was abraham lying about the animal?
and in all of this, you somehow missed that the crown of thorns is clearly playing on the thicket?
Of course I think these are marvelous "coincidences" that span almost 2000 years of history, that could only have been engineered by God since the human participants had no way of doing it or even recognizing it at the time.
sure they did: the people writing the new testament had read the old testament.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1502 by Faith, posted 01-12-2015 11:35 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1532 by NoNukes, posted 01-12-2015 8:34 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 1533 by Faith, posted 01-12-2015 8:47 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1532 of 2241 (747168)
01-12-2015 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1531 by arachnophilia
01-12-2015 8:20 PM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
Faith writes:
This is exactly what Abraham himself had prophesied when he told Isaac on the way to Moriah that God would provide Himself a lamb to sacrifice. Which he must have expected to happen since he expected God to raise Isaac from the dead
arachnophilia writes:
so was abraham lying about the animal?
Faith's post is way more convoluted than you suggest here. According to Faith, the lamb was required because Isaac was going to be resurrected. So apparently, Isaac's resurrection would invalidate the sacrifice requiring another lamb. Surely that's not the lesson here?
no, you missed one. abraham may not have thought he was the right isaac.
Missed only one? So there were only one (or two) ways God could have worked through this?

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1531 by arachnophilia, posted 01-12-2015 8:20 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1534 by arachnophilia, posted 01-12-2015 8:51 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1533 of 2241 (747170)
01-12-2015 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1531 by arachnophilia
01-12-2015 8:20 PM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
As I said, Isaac is CALLED (by God in Genesis 22) Abraham's only son.
A slab with four corners to which the sacrifice was lashed is the model for the cross.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1531 by arachnophilia, posted 01-12-2015 8:20 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1535 by arachnophilia, posted 01-12-2015 8:53 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1543 by Golffly, posted 01-13-2015 9:10 AM Faith has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 1534 of 2241 (747171)
01-12-2015 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1532 by NoNukes
01-12-2015 8:34 PM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
NoNukes writes:
Missed only one? So there were only one (or two) ways God could have worked through this?
no, i mean, other ways to read it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1532 by NoNukes, posted 01-12-2015 8:34 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 1535 of 2241 (747172)
01-12-2015 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1533 by Faith
01-12-2015 8:47 PM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
Faith writes:
As I said, Isaac is CALLED (by God in Genesis 22) Abraham's only son.
presumably because ishmael was sent away. (and maybe dead?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1533 by Faith, posted 01-12-2015 8:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1536 by Faith, posted 01-12-2015 8:58 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1536 of 2241 (747173)
01-12-2015 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1535 by arachnophilia
01-12-2015 8:53 PM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
Perhaps because he was sent away but certainly because Isaac was the son God promised him, and calling him his only son is what makes the parallel with Christ.
And you make a lot of other silly remarks. The sacrifice is the atonement, Isaac represented the atonement, then the ram took his place.
And I see NN is continuing to say a bunch of weird unrecognizable things about what I said about the lamb, but perhaps I'll be better able to think about all this later.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1535 by arachnophilia, posted 01-12-2015 8:53 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1537 by arachnophilia, posted 01-12-2015 9:10 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1538 by NoNukes, posted 01-12-2015 9:24 PM Faith has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 1537 of 2241 (747174)
01-12-2015 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1536 by Faith
01-12-2015 8:58 PM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
Faith writes:
Perhaps because he was sent away but certainly because Isaac was the son God promised him, and calling him his only son is what makes the parallel with Christ.
so jesus has half-brothers that don't really count?
i mean, i'll grant you that based on the text of the old testament, where the sons (plural) of god literally make several appearances. i just didn't think you'd want to actually argue that jesus had brothers.
And you make a lot of other silly remarks. The sacrifice is the atonement, Isaac represented the atonement, then the ram took his place.
correct, and in christianity, jesus is sacrificed instead of us. our deaths are commanded, but he takes our place. making him the ram, not isaac.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1536 by Faith, posted 01-12-2015 8:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1539 by Faith, posted 01-12-2015 10:13 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1538 of 2241 (747175)
01-12-2015 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1536 by Faith
01-12-2015 8:58 PM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
Maybe if I say less, you'll understand more.
Your claim is that Abraham prophetically spoke of a lamb that would be provided, and was provided. Abraham you say, knew that after he killed Isaac, Isaac would be resurrected.
Assume all of that to be correct. Why would Abraham need to make a second sacrifice simply because Isaac was resurrected? On the other hand, we know why a lamb would be needed if Isaac was not killed at all? Isaac was not atoning for any sin, so it is not a matter of Isaac's insufficiency.
Your scenario makes no sense at all.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1536 by Faith, posted 01-12-2015 8:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1540 by Faith, posted 01-12-2015 10:17 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1539 of 2241 (747176)
01-12-2015 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1537 by arachnophilia
01-12-2015 9:10 PM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
The point, Arach, is that God called Isaac Abraham's only son. There is no other point. Jesus was God's only Son, "only-begotten Son," you know, as scripture says. Mary had other sons but God had only one. So to say that Isaac was Abraham's only son is to make a parallel with God's only Son. It's not rocket science.
Genesis 22:2:
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1537 by arachnophilia, posted 01-12-2015 9:10 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1542 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2015 12:42 AM Faith has replied
 Message 1605 by arachnophilia, posted 01-14-2015 6:06 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1540 of 2241 (747177)
01-12-2015 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1538 by NoNukes
01-12-2015 9:24 PM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
The lamb was referred to prophetically because it was fulfilled in the ram in the thicket.
I believe I've said I'm not clear about it otherwise. Abraham said it to Isaac, it was fulfilled in the ram, that much is true.
We know from Hebrews 11 and, as I've shown, it must be inferred from Genesis 22, that Abraham expected Isaac to be resurrected. I don't see any way to doubt that.
How the statement about the lamb fits in I don't know for sure but the above are facts.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1538 by NoNukes, posted 01-12-2015 9:24 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1541 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2015 12:38 AM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1541 of 2241 (747180)
01-13-2015 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1540 by Faith
01-12-2015 10:17 PM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
The lamb was referred to prophetically because it was fulfilled in the ram in the thicket.
Yet you cannot make sense of why the ram would be needed.
How the statement about the lamb fits in I don't know for sure but the above are facts
Well, facts intermingled with your interpretation. For example:
and, as I've shown, it must be inferred from Genesis 22
You have not shown any such thing. You've asserted that yours is the only possible interpretation, but you cannot explain where the alternatives you've been offered break down.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1540 by Faith, posted 01-12-2015 10:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1545 by Faith, posted 01-13-2015 10:07 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1542 of 2241 (747181)
01-13-2015 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1539 by Faith
01-12-2015 10:13 PM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
Abraham's only son is to make a parallel with God's only Son. It's not rocket science.
The problem with your statement is that the parallel is not true. Apparently nothing stops prophecy. Not even the facts.
Mary had other sons but God had only one.
Right, and we don't call Jesus "Mary's only son" despite the fact that the other sons have paternity differs from that of Jesus. Not sure what point you can make by drawing Mary into things.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1539 by Faith, posted 01-12-2015 10:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1544 by Faith, posted 01-13-2015 9:55 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 1543 of 2241 (747193)
01-13-2015 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1533 by Faith
01-12-2015 8:47 PM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
While it is interesting to see the guess work involved in trying to make the bible fit what we want it to say, that is mostly an example of the fruitfulness of the human imagination.
The problems of the bible occur with mostly what it actual says, as opposed to what we wish it would say if we wrote it.
So what it actually says.
I pointed out that god didn't approve of human sacrifice but then changed his mind and did approve or allow it.
Oh, also is incest also a prophecy or some type of symbolism?
Staying with Abe, as was pointed out here earlier, he marries his half sister Sarah.
The righteous man Lot screws his daughters.
And if a person thinks about it, Adam and Eve's first grand children come from an incestuous relationship.
Leviticus later condemns incest with death.
The idea that an all knowing being changes his mind is ripe for a discussion in and of itself. But why does god approve incest, only to later not approve of it?
Edited by Golffly, : Addition

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1533 by Faith, posted 01-12-2015 8:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1557 by Faith, posted 01-13-2015 12:36 PM Golffly has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1544 of 2241 (747195)
01-13-2015 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1542 by NoNukes
01-13-2015 12:42 AM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
Right, and we don't call Jesus "Mary's only son" despite the fact that the other sons have paternity differs from that of Jesus. Not sure what point you can make by drawing Mary into things.
It wasn't addressed to you so it might be best if you stayed out of it. Arach kept objecting to the idea that Isaac parallels Jesus based onJesus having brothers, insisting that Isaac also had a brother so the parallel I was making is wrong. But it is God who says Isaac is Abraham's only son, and that is what makes the parallel with God's having only one Son. It is Mary who had the other sons, not God. This is really very clear, NN, it must take some kind of extra effort to come up with an objection to it.
All the parallels between the sacrifice of Isaac and the sacrifice of Christ are quite clear, and again, this IS the orthodox understanding of the passage. It reaches way beyond the event itself into the future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1542 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2015 12:42 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1565 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2015 2:30 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1545 of 2241 (747196)
01-13-2015 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1541 by NoNukes
01-13-2015 12:38 AM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
I think I just figured out what your problem is. When I say that the lamb was prophetic of the ram in the thicket you think I'm saying Abraham knew there would be a ram in the thicket. But I am not saying that. I think Abraham made the prophecy in spite of himself. The commentaries seem to believe it was a direct prophecy of Christ, since the Messiah was expected by all believers back to Eden.
I did indeed show that Abraham's expectation that God would raise Isaac from the dead is implicit in Genesis 22, I went through it at least twice and here it is again:
Abraham believed God that He would make Abraham the father of a great nation through Isaac. Believing that, he would have to believe that Isaac would survive the sacrifice.
At the same time Abraham fully intended to go through with the sacrifice and take Isaac's life. When he raised the knife it was with this full intention.
Putting those two facts together we can only conclude that Abraham expected God to raise Isaac from the dead. And Hebrews 11 confirms it.
You complain but don't offer any other possible explanation. There isn't one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1541 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2015 12:38 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1546 by jar, posted 01-13-2015 10:13 AM Faith has replied
 Message 1562 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2015 1:51 PM Faith has replied

  
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