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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1636 of 2241 (747428)
01-15-2015 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1635 by Faith
01-15-2015 11:27 AM


Re: Jephthah again
Faith writes:
Jepthah could not possibly have promised the God of Israel a human sacrifice, since God condemns human sacrifice, unless he was completely out of his mind.
And yet the story is pretty clear that he did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1635 by Faith, posted 01-15-2015 11:27 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1637 of 2241 (747430)
01-15-2015 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1635 by Faith
01-15-2015 11:27 AM


Re: Jephthah again
Faith writes:
Jepthah could not possibly have promised the God of Israel a human sacrifice, since God condemns human sacrifice, unless he was completely out of his mind.
But what does the Bible actually say Faith? I even posted the relevant passages in the story since it did not seem that you had read the Bible.
The story not only shows that Jephthah not only promised a human sacrifice but that his daughter understood and agreed that he had done so and that he DID BBQ the girl.
Shall I post the passage yet again?
Why is it that Biblical Christians seem unable to believe what the Bible actually says?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1635 by Faith, posted 01-15-2015 11:27 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1641 by Golffly, posted 01-15-2015 12:11 PM jar has replied
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Golffly
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 1638 of 2241 (747433)
01-15-2015 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1634 by Faith
01-15-2015 11:25 AM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
Sorry faith. I was sure you did. I can't look back at present (no time), but I changed it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1634 by Faith, posted 01-15-2015 11:25 AM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1639 of 2241 (747437)
01-15-2015 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1638 by Golffly
01-15-2015 11:42 AM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
Thank you.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1640 of 2241 (747442)
01-15-2015 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1630 by Percy
01-15-2015 7:54 AM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
GOD's only begotten Son. Whoever begets you passes on their own characteristics. Thus Jesus, being God's begotten Son, has the attributes of God as well as humanity.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1630 by Percy, posted 01-15-2015 7:54 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 1643 by Percy, posted 01-15-2015 12:38 PM Faith has replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 1641 of 2241 (747446)
01-15-2015 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1637 by jar
01-15-2015 11:34 AM


Re: Jephthah again
Faith writes:
But of course if you won't even take what is written in the Bible as any kind of authority whatever, even that it simply was written as it was written, we have no grounds for having any kind of discussion at all.
jar writes:
But what does the Bible actually say Faith? I even posted the relevant passages in the story since it did not seem that you had read the Bible.
The story not only shows that Jephthah not only promised a human sacrifice but that his daughter understood and agreed that he had done so and that he DID BBQ the girl.
Edited by Golffly, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1637 by jar, posted 01-15-2015 11:34 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1642 of 2241 (747447)
01-15-2015 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1640 by Faith
01-15-2015 12:04 PM


still just making stuff up.
Faith writes:
GOD's only begotten Son. Whoever begets you passes on their own characteristics. Thus Jesus, being God's begotten Son, has the attributes of God as well as humanity.
But there is nothing in the Bible that says or even implies that and ALL the evidence is that that is simply not true. While my father hand one of my brothers had lots of hair two of my brothers were going bald before they were thirty.
Now I will point out that when you breed a horse and a donkey you do get a mule but a mule does not have all the characteristics of a horse and a donkey; it's a mule, something that is neither horse nor donkey.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1640 by Faith, posted 01-15-2015 12:04 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1643 of 2241 (747452)
01-15-2015 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1640 by Faith
01-15-2015 12:04 PM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
Faith writes:
GOD's only begotten Son. Whoever begets you passes on their own characteristics. Thus Jesus, being God's begotten Son, has the attributes of God as well as humanity.
It's your mythology, I guess you can make up whatever you like. So Jesus existed before he was begotten? And Jesus and Isaac were both only sons who had brothers?
--Percy

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 Message 1640 by Faith, posted 01-15-2015 12:04 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1644 of 2241 (747455)
01-15-2015 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1642 by jar
01-15-2015 12:14 PM


Re: still just making stuff up.
KJV Search Results for "only" AND "begotten"
Philippians 2:6-8:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
He also fulfilled the OT prophecies of the Messiah that refer to Him as God, in Jeremiah, as "God our righteousness" and in Isaiah as "The mighty God, everlasting Father..."

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 Message 1642 by jar, posted 01-15-2015 12:14 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1645 of 2241 (747456)
01-15-2015 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1641 by Golffly
01-15-2015 12:11 PM


What does the Bible actually say?
It seems that what is actually written in that Bible story somehow got overlooked and so perhaps reposting the actual text might be worthwhile.
quote:
29 Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.
30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
32 So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the Lord delivered them into his hands.
33 And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.
34 And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.
35 And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the Lord, and I cannot go back.
36 And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the Lord, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the Lord hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.
37 And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.
38 And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.
39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,
It does not matter what Jepthah thought would come out of the door, it was his daughter that came out of his door and he did kill her as he had vowed to do and burned her as a sacrifice to God and there is nothing in the story that says or implies that the God character found the offering abhorrent.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 1641 by Golffly, posted 01-15-2015 12:11 PM Golffly has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1646 of 2241 (747458)
01-15-2015 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1637 by jar
01-15-2015 11:34 AM


Re: Jephthah again
This is a bit late, I know, but if a clarification could be made please.
The passages I have read in Judges 11, all in English, King James and a few others, have Jephthah promising god that "whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me ... " and not whosoever ...
Unless someone can show that the Aramaic/Greek/Hebrew whatever original indicates otherwise I think I'll go with Faith on this one.
It would appear from the English that Jephthah was not promising a human sacrifice as some here insist, but just an unspecified sacrifice. Can anyone show that it was or was not common/uncommon in them days for one's favorite dog or lamb or gerbil or elephant to be first out the door to greet the returning master?
Does it even matter?
The whole point of the story is that a promise was made to god and one did not welsh on god regardless of the cost. The disturbing thing is that the girl was roasted and no one, especially not this god, did a damn thing to stop it. And to think that 3 of this world's major religions are based on the love of this crap. Sick.

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 Message 1637 by jar, posted 01-15-2015 11:34 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 1651 by NoNukes, posted 01-15-2015 1:35 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1647 of 2241 (747460)
01-15-2015 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1643 by Percy
01-15-2015 12:38 PM


Re: The sacrifice of Isaac shows the divine inspiration of scripture
Ya know, Percy, if you'd suspend your bias for a short time and just read the points I made in Message 1593 you might at least know that what is actually written there does indeed quite amazingly parallel what is said of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The number of elements in the story that also describe Christ is beyond probability and beyond anybody's ability to tamper with them in the future. And how could anyone seriously think that somehow someone engineered Jesus' sacrifice to imitate the story of Abraham and Isaac anyway? How smart do you think the apostles were, and how well able to get everyone to say the same thing? The suppositions of the debunkers are an amazing exercise in fantasy. They invented Herod and Pilate and the Centurion at the foot of the cross, they invented the empty tomb, what else do you think these omniscient geniuses might have invented to make it all work out to seem to be fulfilled prophecy? And there are lots of other prophetic types and statements they'd also had to make Jesus' death conform to.
Yes of course Jesus existed before He was begotten as a man, He was with God in eternity before that event when He was made incarnate as a human being in the womb of Mary.
I guess you just aren't very familiar with how God gave Isaac to Abraham, but it does make quite a good parallel with the gift of Christ to us, as good a parallel as you're going to get from a merely human birth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1643 by Percy, posted 01-15-2015 12:38 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1648 of 2241 (747461)
01-15-2015 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1644 by Faith
01-15-2015 12:45 PM


Re: still just making stuff up.
Faith writes:
Philippians 2:6-8:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
But again, that is simply marketing Faith and says nothing about Jesus having the attributes of God. To claim a god allowed himself to get killed just makes the whole thing a farce and con game.
Faith writes:
He also fulfilled the OT prophecies of the Messiah that refer to Him as God, in Jeremiah, as "God our righteousness" and in Isaiah as "The mighty God, everlasting Father..."
You keep claiming that there are Old Testament prophecies of Jesus and if you really know of any please bring the Chapter and verse over to Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus? and if it is not one that has already been shown to be false we can test it.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1644 by Faith, posted 01-15-2015 12:45 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1649 of 2241 (747462)
01-15-2015 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1646 by AZPaul3
01-15-2015 12:50 PM


Re: Jephthah again
Thank you for the first half of your post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1646 by AZPaul3, posted 01-15-2015 12:50 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1650 of 2241 (747463)
01-15-2015 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1646 by AZPaul3
01-15-2015 12:50 PM


Re: Jephthah again
AZPaul3 writes:
Does it even matter?
The whole point of the story is that a promise was made to god and one did not welsh on god regardless of the cost. The disturbing thing is that the girl was roasted and no one, especially not this god, did a damn thing to stop it. And to think that 3 of this world's major religions are based on the love of this crap. Sick.
As I have pointed out several times in this thread it doesn't matter what Jephthah thought would be the first thing to come out his door (although since it is a door to a house expecting a person instead of an ass is not unreasonable); the story says Jephthah made a vow, daughter accepted that it was a valid vow, the girl did get BBQ'd and there is nothing to show that the God character found the offering abhorrent.
And what is sick, I agree, are those people who consider such behavior as justified or claim a God that would allow such crap was good. Christian education is often every big as piss poor in the US (I exclude other areas since I am a US citizen and embarrassed that other US citizens can buy into such bullshit) as US history education.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1646 by AZPaul3, posted 01-15-2015 12:50 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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