Summations Only

Seriously, AZ. Wouldn't this promise of necessity present an unacceptably high probability of sacrificing a family member or friend? It's not as though "whatsovever" was going to be the dining room table. We're talking about an ambulatory "whatsoever". Just being "common" is not enough. First of all, I don't think sacrificing a dog was going to be acceptable under any circumstances. Secondly, unless it was extremely uncommon that a human would exit the door, I'd suggest that Jephthah is completely responsible for knowing that "whatsoever" might turn out to be "someone".Obviously I cannot disprove "mere" gross recklessness. But given that Jephthah went through with the sacrifice, I'm having a hard time distinguishing recklessness from intent or finding any motivation to do so. There is no doubt in my mind that Jephthah was prepared to sacrifice a human. A lamb coming through the door instead would have been a total bailout. Yeah, his daughter was unexpected. I suppose he was superstitious enough to believe that wouldn't happen. I'm not the least bit bothered by God not interfering. This evil crap is all on Jephthah. Nobody told him to kill anyone. How many people would put one of their own children on the spit to save themselves?

I believe I've made it clear more than once that God would have condemned both the vow and human sacrifice so why are you all going on as if that wasn't the case?Jephthah made a rash vow and felt obligated to perform it even though performing it would be a great sin. This is why some commentators think he couldn't have gone through with it although I agree with those who think he must have, judging from the passage itself. That puts him in great sin from God's point of view, however.abe; the idea that he could have had any degree of intent to sacrifice a member of his family just can't be taken seriously. Why would he sacrifice his only daughter, which the passage makes clear he loved? Such ideas are ridiculous. He had to have anticipated an animal coming out of his house, there is no other possibility. /abeThe best excuse I can offer for him is that things were pretty primitive in the time of the Judges, the Law wasn't consistently followed and in fact it is said that "everyone did what was right in their own eyes" just like the heathen. This doesn't exonerate him from the great sin in any case, it just provides some kind of explanation.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Well let's look at the main list:

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Isaac is called Abraham's only son

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Of course there are problems for that, but OK let's accept it. There's an obvious literary purpose to it, and Jesus being called God's only son has equally obvious reasons so it doesn't even require any deliberate attempts to make parallels. So, not significant on it's own, but if you could come up wiht more and better you'd have a case.

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Abraham's name means father

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That's not entirely true. Abraham's name means more than that, although it appears that the exact meaning is unclear - "father of multitudes" is one translation that makes sense. So, not much of a parallel.

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Abraham had every intention of sacrificing Isaac,

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Which only draws attention to the fact that he didn't. So this is more of a divergence than a parallel.

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Abraham believed God would raise Isaac from the dead.

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Even if that was justified it wouldn't be much of a parallel. But it isn't. The opinions of people far removed from the writing of even that version of the story carries little weight. The attempt to claim that it is implicit in the story is obviously false - and pointless.

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Abraham was told to perform this sacrifice in the region of Moriah on a particular mountain which God would reveal to him. This is where the city of Jerusalem was built hundreds of years later, which is of course where Jesus was crucified

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That's speculation. We don't know that the mountains are the same, and the events happening in the same general area would only be a weak parallel if they were. Moreover the religious importance of Jerusalem makes it something of a no-brainer to link both stories to it, so it has very little significance.So, objectively speaking there really isn't much to the case. Certainly not enough to justify any claim of divine inspiration. All well within the reach of probability with no need of anyone engineering any parallels.

The passage SAYS Isaac was Abraham's only son. THat's what it SAYS. abe: Which is because God planned the birth of Isaac as the father of the nation He promised to Abraham, whereas Ishmael was the result of Abrhaham's failure of faith /abe You want to rewrite scripture don't try to get me to buy your rewrite.Yes, "father of multitudes" is the usual translation and I should have remembered that but I didn't. However, you are wrong that it makes less of a parallel. Of course it makes a better parallel since God Himself is certainly the father of multitudes, not God-begotten multitudes but created / human-begotten multitudes.Having the intention to kill Isaac is what supports the parallel with the sacrifice of Christ. He would have done it if God hadn't intervened. So you are wrong to dismiss that obvious parallel.YOu are not reading carefully if you think Abraham's expectation that God would raise Isaac from the dead is not clearly indicated by the facts I gave. FACTS.Moriah figures in all three descriptions and Mt. Moriah too. You need to turn yourself into a mental pretzel to deny it. Not that you aren't very good at doing just that when your bias requires it.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

But ... but, the second half was the good part.

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The passage SAYS Isaac was Abraham's only son. THat's what it SAYS

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Well thank you for saying that I got that right. I don't know why you bothered with something that obvious, though.

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You want to rewrite scripture don't try to get me to buy your rewrite.

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What rewrite ?

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Yes, "father of multitudes" is the usual translation and I should have remembered that but I didn't. However, you are wrong that it makes less of a parallel. Of course it makes a better parallel since God Himself is certainly the father of multitudes, not begotten multitudes but created multitudes.

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Obviously it DOES weaken the parallel, since God IS commonly called "Father" and not "Father of multitudes". And since there are good reasons for Abraham to be called that unrelated to making a parallel it makes it less significant, too

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Having the intention to kill Isaac is what supports the parallel with the sacrifice of Christ. He would have done it if God hadn't intervened. So you are wrong to dismiss that obvious parallel.

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Simply repeating the claim does nothing to counter my assessment.

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YOu are not reading carefully if you think Abraham's expectation that God would raise Isaac from the dead is not clearly indicated by the facts I gave. FACTS.

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Oh ? Seems to me that even if Abraham assumed that Isaac would survive (and that is not certain) there is no need for him to have any specific idea in mind of how that would occur. And we KNOW that there was an alternative to Isaac being resurrected - what happened in the story.

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Moriah figures in all three descriptions and Mt. Moriah too. You need to turn yourself into a mental pretzel to deny it.

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The land of Moriah appears in Genesis 22, and Mount Moriah in 2 Chronicles - and the name Moriah nowhere else in the Bible. We can't tell that they are the same place, just because the name appears to be the same. A mountain and a land are not the same thing - and even if they were related there is nothing to say which of the mountains in that region was the mountain where the sacrifice took place.So no, there's no need to turn myself into a "mental pretzel". Taking an objective look look at the evidence is all that needed.

I'm going on because I actually read what the story says and don't just make shit up to change what the story actually says.Shall I post the story yet again or will you continue to deny that the story says what it says?You claim he committed a great sin but again, that is certainly not what the story ays.

Genesis 22 refers to a mountain in Moriah to which God will direct Abraham. You really want to deny that that's "Mount Moriah?"

That is not the point, is it. The point is in that half of my post that Faith doesn't seem to care for. Well, you should be. This is another example of the evil crap that permeates the entire tome. There is enough evil in this story to smear on everyone involved. It doesn't matter if god said or did anything or not. This entire story is put forward as another example of what it means to live a "god fearing life". So many people we all have to deal with, work with, rely on, in this society believe and are in love with this demented shit.

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Genesis 22 refers to a mountain in Moriah to which God will direct Abraham. You really want to deny that that's "Mount Moriah?"

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Even if Mount Moriah is in the land of Moriah, which is not certain, Mount Moriah is only one of the mountains in that region. So why does the mountain where the sacrifice took place have to be that one ?

The problem I see is not so much the story but rather how this (and so many others) are taught. The whole book of Judges is a counterpoint to the Conquest of Canaan story as recorded in Joshua; likely about the same period but told from a different perspective.Josh's story creates an image of a unified peoples, a nation; but one for which there is simply no evidence.Judges though is slightly more realistic (though still propaganda and mythos) depicting the shifting political reality and conflicts between a bunch of tribes, proto-city states.As is so often the case though the stories are taught as though they were fact which simply makes the God character look evil and frankly, not very bright and also diminishes the worth of the stories as a window into the life, beliefs and politics of the era.You last sentence though is sorrowfully, the truth; but that is also true about US history and morality.

These could be looked upon as a form of human sacrifice:2 Chronicles 34:1-5
Josiah ... did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord ... And he burnt the bones of the priests upon their altars.IKings 13:2
And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.It's odd anyway.

Boy are YOU out of line. The example is of a man who DIDN'T do according to God's Law, not an example of how to live a God fearing life at all. God condemns both rash vows and human sacrifice.

Not really and you are doing the same thing Faith is doing, taking stuff out of context to support your position.Here are the passages in context.

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2 Chronicles 34:1-5King James Version (KJV)

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34 Josiah was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem one and thirty years.

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2 And he did that which was right in the sight of the Lord, and walked in the ways of David his father, and declined neither to the right hand, nor to the left.

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3 For in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, he began to seek after the God of David his father: and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem from the high places, and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images.

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4 And they brake down the altars of Baalim in his presence; and the images, that were on high above them, he cut down; and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images, he brake in pieces, and made dust of them, and strowed it upon the graves of them that had sacrificed unto them.

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5 And he burnt the bones of the priests upon their altars, and cleansed Judah and Jerusalem.

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1 Kings 13 King James Version (KJV)

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13 And, behold, there came a man of God out of Judah by the word of the Lord unto Bethel: and Jeroboam stood by the altar to burn incense.

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2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the Lord, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the Lord; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

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3 And he gave a sign the same day, saying, This is the sign which the Lord hath spoken; Behold, the altar shall be rent, and the ashes that are upon it shall be poured out.

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4 And it came to pass, when king Jeroboam heard the saying of the man of God, which had cried against the altar in Bethel, that he put forth his hand from the altar, saying, Lay hold on him. And his hand, which he put forth against him, dried up, so that he could not pull it in again to him.

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5 The altar also was rent, and the ashes poured out from the altar, according to the sign which the man of God had given by the word of the Lord.

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6 And the king answered and said unto the man of God, Intreat now the face of the Lord thy God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored me again. And the man of God besought the Lord, and the king's hand was restored him again, and became as it was before.

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7 And the king said unto the man of God, Come home with me, and refresh thyself, and I will give thee a reward.

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8 And the man of God said unto the king, If thou wilt give me half thine house, I will not go in with thee, neither will I eat bread nor drink water in this place:

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9 For so was it charged me by the word of the Lord, saying, Eat no bread, nor drink water, nor turn again by the same way that thou camest.

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10 So he went another way, and returned not by the way that he came to Bethel.

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11 Now there dwelt an old prophet in Bethel; and his sons came and told him all the works that the man of God had done that day in Bethel: the words which he had spoken unto the king, them they told also to their father.

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12 And their father said unto them, What way went he? For his sons had seen what way the man of God went, which came from Judah.

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13 And he said unto his sons, Saddle me the ass. So they saddled him the ass: and he rode thereon,

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14 And went after the man of God, and found him sitting under an oak: and he said unto him, Art thou the man of God that camest from Judah? And he said, I am.

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15 Then he said unto him, Come home with me, and eat bread.

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16 And he said, I may not return with thee, nor go in with thee: neither will I eat bread nor drink water with thee in this place:

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17 For it was said to me by the word of the Lord, Thou shalt eat no bread nor drink water there, nor turn again to go by the way that thou camest.

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18 He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the Lord, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.

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19 So he went back with him, and did eat bread in his house, and drank water.

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20 And it came to pass, as they sat at the table, that the word of the Lord came unto the prophet that brought him back:

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21 And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the Lord, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the Lord, and hast not kept the commandment which the Lord thy God commanded thee,

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22 But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the Lord did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers.

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23 And it came to pass, after he had eaten bread, and after he had drunk, that he saddled for him the ass, to wit, for the prophet whom he had brought back.

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24 And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the ass stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase.

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25 And, behold, men passed by, and saw the carcase cast in the way, and the lion standing by the carcase: and they came and told it in the city where the old prophet dwelt.

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26 And when the prophet that brought him back from the way heard thereof, he said, It is the man of God, who was disobedient unto the word of the Lord: therefore the Lord hath delivered him unto the lion, which hath torn him, and slain him, according to the word of the Lord, which he spake unto him.

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27 And he spake to his sons, saying, Saddle me the ass. And they saddled him.

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28 And he went and found his carcase cast in the way, and the ass and the lion standing by the carcase: the lion had not eaten the carcase, nor torn the ass.

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29 And the prophet took up the carcase of the man of God, and laid it upon the ass, and brought it back: and the old prophet came to the city, to mourn and to bury him.

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30 And he laid his carcase in his own grave; and they mourned over him, saying, Alas, my brother!

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31 And it came to pass, after he had buried him, that he spake to his sons, saying, When I am dead, then bury me in the sepulchre wherein the man of God is buried; lay my bones beside his bones:

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32 For the saying which he cried by the word of the Lord against the altar in Bethel, and against all the houses of the high places which are in the cities of Samaria, shall surely come to pass.

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33 After this thing Jeroboam returned not from his evil way, but made again of the lowest of the people priests of the high places: whosoever would, he consecrated him, and he became one of the priests of the high places.

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34 And this thing became sin unto the house of Jeroboam, even to cut it off, and to destroy it from off the face of the earth.

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In neither case is a human sacrifice to the Hebrew God mentioned or implied.The stories though from Josh, Kings, Judges and Chronicles are fascinating glimpses into the different beliefs of the era, of Judah and Israel and of the variations in beliefs, associations and politics found in the tribes of Israel.

Well, not purposefully anyway. Mostly for brevity here. ( and I felt the context didn't change my meaning)
Human bones burnt on an altar.It "smells" of some type of sacrifice. Not sure though.