Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Atheists can't hold office in the USA?
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 76 of 777 (747717)
01-18-2015 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by dwise1
01-18-2015 5:55 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
I threw that in in order to show what the anti-atheists think about agnosticism. To them, an agnostic is the same thing as an atheist.
Well, sure. But they also see "liberal Christian" as just another name for "atheist".

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by dwise1, posted 01-18-2015 5:55 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 777 (747718)
01-18-2015 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by RAZD
01-18-2015 7:43 PM


Re: It's hard to modify Constitutions
For amendments to be incorporated they would need to be passed by a super-majority rather than a simple majority vote.
Does that work?
Not for me. I don't want people tweaking the constitution. Even editorial changes require interpretation as to intent. We could fight about what the 2nd amendment is supposed to mean till the cows came home even if our intent was to just be clear.
And I simply don't trust any group of folks to muck around with the federal constitution on a regular basis. A super majority of North Carolinians decided that there we should not even have civil unions for gay people; a decision I consider remarkably cruel.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by RAZD, posted 01-18-2015 7:43 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by RAZD, posted 01-20-2015 11:01 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 777 (747738)
01-19-2015 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Theodoric
01-18-2015 5:35 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
They are not different things on a spectrum.
Not a linear spectrum, no. But I bet you could come up with one of those 2-D four quadrant graphs.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Theodoric, posted 01-18-2015 5:35 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2015 9:01 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 79 of 777 (747741)
01-19-2015 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Theodoric
01-18-2015 6:22 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Theo writes:
No an agnostic theist believes in a god, they just understand that they do not know there is a god.
An agnostic atheist does not believe in a god, but they admit they do not know there is a god.
Exactly. The first believes in god and is therefore a theist and the second doesn't and is therefore an atheist.
As neither has the knowledge of the existence or non-existence of a god, it can be removed from both sides of the equation without changing the outcome. In reality, there is no such thing as agnostic.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Theodoric, posted 01-18-2015 6:22 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Minnemooseus, posted 01-19-2015 6:52 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 84 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2015 9:03 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 248 by RAZD, posted 01-27-2015 6:26 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 80 of 777 (747743)
01-19-2015 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by RAZD
01-18-2015 7:15 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Nope, nope ;-)
See message 79.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by RAZD, posted 01-18-2015 7:15 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by RAZD, posted 01-19-2015 9:54 AM Tangle has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


(4)
Message 81 of 777 (747745)
01-19-2015 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Tangle
01-19-2015 3:34 AM


Re: agnostic anyone?
1 - Ask a person - "Do you believe in god?"
Answer is "Yes" - Theist.
Answer is "No" - Atheist.
Answer is "I don't know" - Atheist.
If the answer is not "Yes" - Atheist.
2 - Ask a person - "Is there a god?"
"Yes" - Theist.
"No" - Atheist.
"I don't know" - Agnostic.
But 2 is a rather ambiguous question, perhaps essentially the same as 1, or is it perhaps essentially the same as 3 (below)?. It could be interpreted either way.
3 - Ask a person - "Do you know there is a god?"
"Yes" - Delusional theist.
"No" - Agnostic.
4 - Ask a person - Do you know there is no god?"
"Yes" - Delusional atheist.
"No" - Agnostic.
Concerning god, there are two types of people - Agnostic or delusional.
Does the above message contain any real enlightenment - I don't know.
Moose
Added by edit - 9 days later, a self appraisal of this message:
As I type this, this message has received 4 (+)'s. This topic is of a "hair-splitting" nature, calling for precise use of language. As such, while I think I do have some good content, there is also significant "fail" in this message. Although, in a way, perhaps even the "fail" had value.
2 - Ask a person - "Is there a god?"
"Yes" - Theist.
"No" - Atheist.
"I don't know" - Agnostic.
But 2 is a rather ambiguous question, perhaps essentially the same as 1, or is it perhaps essentially the same as 3 (below)?. It could be interpreted either way.
Yes, it is ambiguous, and I think I threw even myself off. It could be interpreted as a faith/belief thing, or as a science/evidence thing, both of which were covered elsewhere. The above quoted part is a blotch, and should not have been in the message. Was it a part that the people liked???
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Tweek.
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added by edit - 9 days later, a self appraisal of this message.

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 3:34 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 7:35 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 82 of 777 (747746)
01-19-2015 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Minnemooseus
01-19-2015 6:52 AM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Any self respecting atheist will say that they do not believe that there is a god but add that that there is insufficient information to totally exclude the possibility.
The only real difference between that position and someone calling themselves an agnostic is the degree of doubt expressed.
The answer by both the atheist and the agnostic to Q2 is therefore "I don't know."

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Minnemooseus, posted 01-19-2015 6:52 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2015 9:04 AM Tangle has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 83 of 777 (747750)
01-19-2015 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by NoNukes
01-19-2015 12:57 AM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Not a linear spectrum, no. But I bet you could come up with one of those 2-D four quadrant graphs.
That is why it cannot be on a linear spectrum.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by NoNukes, posted 01-19-2015 12:57 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 84 of 777 (747751)
01-19-2015 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Tangle
01-19-2015 3:34 AM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Wrong.
You understand that there cannot not be any knowledge about the existence of god. A gnostic theist or atheist will tell you they can. Therefore, gnostic and agnostic versions of theist and atheist do exist.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 3:34 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 85 of 777 (747752)
01-19-2015 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Tangle
01-19-2015 7:35 AM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Any self respecting atheist will say that they do not believe that there is a god but add that that there is insufficient information to totally exclude the possibility.
I agree but there are many non-self respecting atheists and theists out there. Because you do not agree they can not exist?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 7:35 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 9:11 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 86 of 777 (747753)
01-19-2015 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Theodoric
01-19-2015 9:04 AM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Theo writes:
I agree but there are many non-self respecting atheists and theists out there. Because you do not agree they can not exist?
I'm saying that agnostics don't exist. They either believe in a god or they don't. "End of" as the kids say. If they don't know whether they believe in God or not, they don't believe in god.
The rest is semantics.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2015 9:04 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2015 9:51 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 89 by dwise1, posted 01-19-2015 10:39 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 91 by AZPaul3, posted 01-19-2015 12:42 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 96 by Jon, posted 01-19-2015 7:12 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(4)
Message 87 of 777 (747754)
01-19-2015 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Tangle
01-19-2015 9:11 AM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Well you are wrong. Agnosticism does not deal with belief. It deals with knowledge.
I am an agnostic atheist. I do not believes a god exists, bug I do not know that.
I exist therefore agnostics exist.
You need to get agnosticism off of your spectrum between atheist and theist

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 9:11 AM Tangle has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 88 of 777 (747755)
01-19-2015 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Tangle
01-19-2015 4:56 AM


Re: agnostic anyone?
You mean this begging the question logical fallacy?
Message 79: As neither has the knowledge of the existence or non-existence of a god, it can be removed from both sides of the equation without changing the outcome. In reality, there is no such thing as agnostic.
Where you remove the agnostic position from consideration and then claim it does not exist?
Read again what I said in Message 74:
quote:
Nope.
Atheists lack belief in god/s. The atheist says that the case for god/s has not been made.
Agnostics lack certainty whether god/s exist or not. The agnostic says that neither the case that god/s exist, nor that they do not exist, have been made.
You can be an agnostic theist, but not an atheist theist.
Now I have not seen anyone claim absolute certainty that gods do not exist, so you would be more accurate to say:
As neither has the knowledge of the existence or non-existence of a god, certainty can be removed from both sides of the equation without changing the outcome. In reality, there is no such thing as atheist.
.
You would have people 99% certain gods exist be considered atheist.
What you have in reality, however, are people claiming something like 99% certainty that gods do not exist, and a spectrum of people in between them and theists that claim 100% certainty that gods do exist. In the middle of that spectrum are people that are uncertain in either direction, and it is a false description to lump them into the atheistic category.
It's not black and white.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 4:56 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 4:22 PM RAZD has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 89 of 777 (747758)
01-19-2015 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Tangle
01-19-2015 9:11 AM


Re: agnostic anyone?
I'm saying that agnostics don't exist.
Demonstrably wrong. I shaved this morning, so I looked at myself in the mirror. In doing so, I verified that I do still exist. Sorry, you cannot redefine me out of existence.
If they don't know whether they believe in God or not, they don't believe in god.
That is not what an agnostic is. Please refer to my previous message.
They either believe in a god or they don't.
At least there you have the definition of "atheist" right.
However, the common Christian definition of "atheist" is "someone who doesn't believe in God." That refers to belief in one very specific god. Hence Hindus who are theists are redefined to be "atheists". I have encountered on several occasions Christians who use "atheist" in precisely that manner, meant to include all believers in any of the other gods. Even Dr. Henry Morris of the ICR described the "atheistic" "evolution model" as including "most of the world's religions, ancient and modern."
Instead of trying to define people away or redefining them as something that they are not, why not take them at their word about what they believe?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 9:11 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 12:38 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 90 of 777 (747771)
01-19-2015 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by dwise1
01-19-2015 10:39 AM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Wise writes:
Demonstrably wrong. I shaved this morning, so I looked at myself in the mirror. In doing so, I verified that I do still exist. Sorry, you cannot redefine me out of existence.
I just checked with my mirror and I too exist. I don't know whether god exists or not but believe that it/he/she/they doesn't/don't.
I am therefore an atheist. I do not believe in any god(s).
Theo writes:
I exist therefore agnostics exist.
ditto above.
Agnostics do not exist - they seem desperately to want to avoid admitting it, but by definition they can not.
atheist
ˈeɪθɪɪst
noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by dwise1, posted 01-19-2015 10:39 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by dwise1, posted 01-20-2015 3:36 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024