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Author Topic:   Atheists can't hold office in the USA?
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 91 of 777 (747773)
01-19-2015 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Tangle
01-19-2015 9:11 AM


Re: agnostic anyone?
I'm saying that agnostics don't exist.
Sure we do. Just ask me. I'll tell you.
Theist-Atheist is rather binary as one believes or one doesn't.
The strength of knowledge behind those beliefs (agnosticism) is a separate scale. "I am certain" thru "I'm thinking this is probably right" thru "I'm thinking this is probably wrong" to "No way in hell is this right."
For me: I am atheist and the strength of that belief is almost certain there is no way in hell the supernatural exists. Others may be more or less certain whether a supernatural whatever exists.
Somewhere along that scale of knowing one recognizes that their assessment of their knowledge is closer to theist than atheist and will thus identify themselves as such.
I would argue that everyone is agnostic to some degree or other and that how far you think you are from the extreme ends of that "Gnosis" scale lets you define whether you are theist/atheist.
I are hard-nosed atheist ... but acknowledge that further information may change that. Thus I am very close to one extreme end of the gnosis scale but not at the end. Then, again, I'm also hard-nosed, almost but not quite extreme, in "knowing" there is no way in hell any new information is going to come along.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 9:11 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 1:30 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 92 of 777 (747776)
01-19-2015 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by AZPaul3
01-19-2015 12:42 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
AZPaul writes:
Sure we do. Just ask me. I'll tell you.
Theist-Atheist is rather binary as one believes or one doesn't.
The strength of knowledge behind those beliefs (agnosticism) is a separate scale. "I am certain" thru "I'm thinking this is probably right" thru "I'm thinking this is probably wrong" to "No way in hell is this right."
For me: I am atheist and the strength of that belief is almost certain there is no way in hell the supernatural exists. Others may be more or less certain whether a supernatural whatever exists.
Somewhere along that scale of knowing one recognizes that their assessment of their knowledge is closer to theist than atheist and will thus identify themselves as such.
I would argue that everyone is agnostic to some degree or other and that how far you think you are from the extreme ends of that "Gnosis" scale lets you define whether you are theist/atheist.
I are hard-nosed atheist ... but acknowledge that further information may change that. Thus I am very close to one extreme end of the gnosis scale but not at the end. Then, again, I'm also hard-nosed, almost but not quite extreme, in "knowing" there is no way in hell any new information is going to come along.
Sure, you're just saying what the others are saying and I obviously agree that there is a personal scale of uncertainty about whether a god exists or not.
Not my point.
My point is definitionally simple. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god. A theist is someone who does believe in god. There is no room in the middle for 'I don't know'. If you do not know whether you believe in god, then you do not believe in god.
As mod said earlier, if you ask a different question than 'do you believe in god?' such as 'does god exist?' you may get a graded answer in reply.
But that ain't about belief in a god. As has been said, then confused, that question is to do with knowledge not belief. But as there is no actual knowledge of God or gods, it's irrelevant - the matter is one of pure belief.
THEISM. : Belief in the existence of a god or gods
ATHEISM. : Denial of metaphysical beliefs in God or divine beings.
Here's a question. Is it possible to think, on say, the balance of probabilities, that a god does exist but still not believe in him/her/it? I'd say yes. Because belief is not rational.
The point being that even though I can't be certain that a god doesn't exist (rational) I still believe that he/her/it doesn't (irrational).

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by AZPaul3, posted 01-19-2015 12:42 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2015 4:06 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 98 by AZPaul3, posted 01-19-2015 11:18 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 99 by nwr, posted 01-20-2015 12:43 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 108 by ringo, posted 01-20-2015 11:20 AM Tangle has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 93 of 777 (747796)
01-19-2015 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Tangle
01-19-2015 1:30 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Ergo, you are an agnostic atheist by definition.
One is knowledge the other belief.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 1:30 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2015 3:44 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 94 of 777 (747797)
01-19-2015 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by RAZD
01-19-2015 9:54 AM


Re: agnostic anyone?
RAZD writes:
You mean this begging the question logical fallacy?
Nope. Put your fallacy handbook back on the shelf.
Where you remove the agnostic position from consideration and then claim it does not exist?
I remove the agnostic position because it does not follow from the argument. If you ask a differenet question to the one posed, you may have a point.
It's not black and white.
The answer to the question 'do you believe in god" returns only three responses, 'yes', 'no', 'don't know'. Because belief is binary, a 'don't know' response is 'no'. The 'i don't know reply' is a lack of belief.
Now, of course, if you ask a different question about the likelyhood of the existence of a god, you'll get a probalistic answer from some people. Particularly those who don't actually believe in a god but aren't used to using that sort of language.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by RAZD, posted 01-19-2015 9:54 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by xongsmith, posted 01-19-2015 6:26 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 97 by Jon, posted 01-19-2015 7:16 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 106 by RAZD, posted 01-20-2015 9:55 AM Tangle has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 95 of 777 (747799)
01-19-2015 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Tangle
01-19-2015 4:22 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Tangle writes:
The answer to the question 'do you believe in god" returns only three responses, 'yes', 'no', 'don't know'. Because belief is binary, a 'don't know' response is 'no'. The 'i don't know reply' is a lack of belief.
Why couldn't it be possible that the person doesn't know what is in his or her mind? "I don't know" could just as easily be the same as a lack of disbelief.
Couldn't they be saying "I don't know if I don't believe in God."?

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 4:22 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 96 of 777 (747801)
01-19-2015 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Tangle
01-19-2015 9:11 AM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Gnosticism deals with knowledge. Theism deals with belief.
I consider myself an Agnostic Theist. I believe very very strongly that GOD is real. I also admit that I have no way of knowing whether GOD is real or not and I also have no way of knowing anything about GOD besides what I feel like making up.
As others have said, gnosticism is on a different plane from theism. In fact, I'd say both are usually required for a coherent belief statement.
If they don't know whether they believe in God or not, they don't believe in god.
Which would make them an Agnostic Atheist.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 9:11 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 777 (747802)
01-19-2015 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Tangle
01-19-2015 4:22 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
-- deleted --
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 4:22 PM Tangle has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 98 of 777 (747812)
01-19-2015 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Tangle
01-19-2015 1:30 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
We are on the same page here, Tangle, except for a couple small detours.
There is no room in the middle for 'I don't know'.
So you say. But we are dealing with human beings here. The entire range of (il)logic and (ir)rationality is available to us. You should not be surprised to hear someone say,"I don't know if there is a god or not. Sometimes I think there may be and sometimes I think maybe not. I don't know."
But as there is no actual knowledge of God or gods ...
That is your personal assessment of your knowledge. I agree, but so what.
Others disagree. Others know there is a god, or some gods, because the bible says so, because life needs a purpose, because DNA is too complex, because god has revealed mystical truths to them in prayer and meditation. Nothing ever said this knowledge, this Gnosis, had to be rational. Let's face it. For a huge, large and really big portion of the humans on this planet rationality does not enter into the thought process.
So, irrational as you may see it, there are theists and there are atheists. Some with strong "knowledge" informing this belief, some not so strong. And, yes, some on the fence bending this way or that depending on the emotional needs of the moment.
Humans. Gotta love 'em.
Here's a question. Is it possible to think, on say, the balance of probabilities, that a god does exist but still not believe in him/her/it? I'd say yes. Because belief is not rational.
How can that be? If, on balance of probabilities, one says "Yes, there is a god," then that is a belief statement. Even in the most twisted irrational of minds, how can someone state that they believe a god exists but then don't believe such a god exists?
I shouldn't be surprised to hear that from some idiot, though. People say the damnedest things. Maybe you're right. My head hurts.
Edited by AZPaul3, : cuz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 1:30 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2015 6:41 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 99 of 777 (747813)
01-20-2015 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Tangle
01-19-2015 1:30 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god. A theist is someone who does believe in god.
And what about those of us who think that "God" is a muddled concept? And what about those of us who think that the concept of belief is muddled?

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 1:30 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 100 of 777 (747815)
01-20-2015 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Theodoric
01-19-2015 4:06 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Theo writes:
Ergo, you are an agnostic atheist by definition.
One is knowledge the other belief.
I'm just an atheist. I do not believe in god(s). No one has knowledge of god, we only know whether we belief in god or not. The term agnostic is therefore redundant and misleading.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2015 4:06 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Minnemooseus, posted 01-20-2015 5:55 AM Tangle has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 101 of 777 (747820)
01-20-2015 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Tangle
01-20-2015 3:44 AM


Reply to a POTM
I'm just an atheist. I do not believe in god(s). No one has knowledge of god, we only know whether we belief in god or not. The term agnostic is therefore redundant and misleading.
Maybe we can say we know what god is not. Not with absolute confidence, but with a large amount of evidence to support what god is not.
Example: A creator of everything of the universe, during what we know as 1 week, about 5 to 10 thousand years ago. We have massive (if not absolute) evidence that that is not god. If your definition of god depends on YECism, then we can say there is no such god. We can know that about as well as we know anything.
So, if someone asks you "Do you know that god does not exist?", the first reply should be "what is god?".
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2015 3:44 AM Tangle has replied

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 102 of 777 (747822)
01-20-2015 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by nwr
01-20-2015 12:43 AM


Re: agnostic anyone?
nwr writes:
And what about those of us who think that "God" is a muddled concept? And what about those of us who think that the concept of belief is muddled?
Those that think that way are quite right - given the messed up thinking in this area, confusion is a sane response. But it does make them atheists because they don't believe in god(s). They're just more confused than most because they don't even know what they don't believe in.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by nwr, posted 01-20-2015 12:43 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 103 of 777 (747823)
01-20-2015 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Minnemooseus
01-20-2015 5:55 AM


Re: Reply to a POTM
Moose writes:
Maybe we can say we know what god is not. Not with absolute confidence, but with a large amount of evidence to support what god is not.
So, if someone asks you "Do you know that god does not exist?", the first reply should be "what is god?".
Sure, i've only been talking in vague deist terms about belief - as soon as you ask 'which god' and 'which version of which god', things become easier to have certainty about. It's that 'you only believe in one less god than I do' idea. (Which you'd think would make believers stop and pause to think for a moment - but it doesn't.)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Minnemooseus, posted 01-20-2015 5:55 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 104 of 777 (747824)
01-20-2015 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by AZPaul3
01-19-2015 11:18 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
AZ writes:
So you say. But we are dealing with human beings here. The entire range of (il)logic and (ir)rationality is available to us. You should not be surprised to hear someone say,"I don't know if there is a god or not. Sometimes I think there may be and sometimes I think maybe not. I don't know."
Well ok, but those people are simply atheists one day (don't know) and theists the next (do know).
That is your personal assessment of your knowledge. I agree, but so what.
If someone can bring objective knowledge to me then I'd become a theist to. Objective knowledge of god does not exist. Someone saying that they know god, is not objective knowledge.
Others disagree. Others know there is a god, or some gods, because the bible says so, because life needs a purpose, because DNA is too complex, because god has revealed mystical truths to them in prayer and meditation. Nothing ever said this knowledge, this Gnosis, had to be rational. Let's face it. For a huge, large and really big portion of the humans on this planet rationality does not enter into the thought process.
Nobody says knowledge has to be rational? Really? Let's just still with knowledge of god needing to be objective to have any power to convince - I am not persuaded by someone telling me that they have personal knowledge of god, therefore god exists. They simply believe. Neither is DNA or bible stories knowledge of god - they are what they are - chemicals and writing.
So, irrational as you may see it, there are theists and there are atheists. Some with strong "knowledge" informing this belief, some not so strong. And, yes, some on the fence bending this way or that depending on the emotional needs of the moment.
If they have a belief then they are theists, if they do not, they are atheists. How conviced they are of their choices is a seperate issue - neither are agnostic.
Even in the most twisted irrational of minds, how can someone state that they believe a god exists but then don't believe such a god exists?- My head hurts.
Mine too

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by AZPaul3, posted 01-19-2015 11:18 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by AZPaul3, posted 01-20-2015 7:56 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 114 by dwise1, posted 01-20-2015 3:48 PM Tangle has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 105 of 777 (747827)
01-20-2015 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Tangle
01-20-2015 6:41 AM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Nobody says knowledge has to be rational? Really?
Unclear reference. My bad.
I was referring to that "personal" knowledge religionists cite so often, not the kind of objective knowledge you and I would require to inform our personal decision on the subject.
All are agnostic and are persuaded to one degree or another by that assessment of personal knowledge. You and I require that knowledge to be rational, objective. Others accept less stringent forms. It's the whole world view thing.
This is a big part of the problem with arguing with theists. Their definition of what is acceptable as "knowledge" can be so different from what you and I could accept. To us such may be irrational, unacceptable, neigh on insane. Still, that is the "knowledge" they use to make their determination.
... those people are simply atheists one day (don't know) and theists the next (do know).
If you want to be pedantic about it, sure. If you see the person in whole, however, not the individual situational thoughts, then to me this qualifies as someone who does not know and could not be classified as either theist or atheist. That binary coin, theist/atheist, can stand on its edge. Yes, IMHO, there is plenty of room in agnosticism for "I don't know".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2015 6:41 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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