Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,818 Year: 3,075/9,624 Month: 920/1,588 Week: 103/223 Day: 1/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   A measured look at a difficult situation
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 76 of 289 (747855)
01-20-2015 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Tangle
01-20-2015 10:58 AM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
We can abandon the circularity of a law being legitimate because it's a law - that's rather silly. For a law to have legitimacy it must be moral and supported by its population; law imposed on populations by dictatorships are neither moral, nor legitimate. Or perhaps you consider the law of imprisoning jews simply for being a jew was legitimate?
No, I'd consider that one to be against God's Law and therefore to be disobeyed too. Should I be willing to die for disobedience if Sharia Law imposed the burqa on me? This is the level I have in mind, a law I'd regard as unjust but not worth dying to disobey it. Attempts to overthrow the whole system I'd probably support though,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2015 10:58 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2015 11:26 AM Faith has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 77 of 289 (747861)
01-20-2015 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Theodoric
01-20-2015 9:09 AM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
It truly is amazing how you condemn any catholic violence, but justify all protestant violence.
Tribalism.
It's the sort of thing that we criticize in primitive African tribes. Modern religions seem to have a more sophistemicated way of being primitively tribalistic.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Theodoric, posted 01-20-2015 9:09 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 01-20-2015 11:27 AM nwr has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 78 of 289 (747862)
01-20-2015 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
01-20-2015 11:08 AM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
Faith writes:
No
Of course you wouldn't. That's all that's being said - if the victor's laws were the same as the loser's you would have no problem, if they weren't you likely would. you would regard one as legitimate and the other as not.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 01-20-2015 11:08 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 01-20-2015 11:29 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 79 of 289 (747863)
01-20-2015 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by nwr
01-20-2015 11:25 AM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
Strange moral equivalence there. The RCC papacy seeks world dominance, Protestantism doesn't, this is not tribalism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by nwr, posted 01-20-2015 11:25 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by nwr, posted 01-20-2015 11:32 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 80 of 289 (747865)
01-20-2015 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Tangle
01-20-2015 11:26 AM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
You are using "legitimate" in a different sense than I am. I merely mean whatever is in legitimate authority because of being imposed by the reigning power at the time, period. You are looking for some kind of moral legitimacy that I'm not talking about, except when it violates God's laws, when I would feel obliged to disobey it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2015 11:26 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2015 11:50 AM Faith has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 81 of 289 (747866)
01-20-2015 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
01-20-2015 11:27 AM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
The RCC papacy seeks world dominance, Protestantism doesn't, this is not tribalism.
I disagree.
We have protestants repeatedly trying force their religion on others through legislation. We have protestants urging that the US go to war against Islam.
Yes, definitely seeking world domination.
But, of course, you were just defending your tribe.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 01-20-2015 11:27 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 01-20-2015 11:37 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied
 Message 83 by jar, posted 01-20-2015 11:46 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 82 of 289 (747867)
01-20-2015 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by nwr
01-20-2015 11:32 AM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
Protestants don't have an Inquisition that murders people for not being Protestant. It's Catholicism that has the symbol of the cross on the globe, not Protestantism. And you would condemn us for using the political system to express our political views and call that seeking world domination? Wow. Thinking here is really extremely confused and weird. Is liberalism a tribe? Perhaps that's your tribe.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by nwr, posted 01-20-2015 11:32 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Larni, posted 01-20-2015 6:02 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 83 of 289 (747870)
01-20-2015 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by nwr
01-20-2015 11:32 AM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
It's particularly funny since the RCC actually has dominion over only 109 acres plus the actual land where embassies are located. In fact it is so small that embassies TO the Vatican have to be located outside Vatican City.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by nwr, posted 01-20-2015 11:32 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 84 of 289 (747871)
01-20-2015 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
01-20-2015 11:29 AM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
Faith writes:
You are using "legitimate" in a different sense than I am. I merely mean whatever is in legitimate authority because of being imposed by the reigning power at the time, period. You are looking for some kind of moral legitimacy that I'm not talking about, except when it violates God's laws, when I would feel obliged to disobey it.
I'm going to have one last shot at this, then I'll give up.
Forget the idea that law is legitimate if it's imposed by a reigning power. That's tautologous - it takes no account of whether the law is fair, moral or just plain evil.
You have already accepted that if the reigning power was a dictatorship, imposing it's immoral law - such as imprisoning Jews - through force against the will of the people, it would be illegitimate. That's all you need to grasp. You would not regard that law as legitimate - you would not feel obligated to comply with it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 01-20-2015 11:29 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 01-20-2015 2:15 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 85 of 289 (747874)
01-20-2015 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Faith
01-20-2015 10:05 AM


Glad you admit the history is far more complex that you thought. This conflict has been going on for 800 years or more in various forms. Your simplistic, tribalist, 'Protestants as martyrs' view is unfounded, inaccurate and simplistic in the extreme.
Have the good grace to bow out of the discussion as with every post you make you highlight the ridiculousness of your interpretation of the tiny part of this history you are aware of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Faith, posted 01-20-2015 10:05 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 01-20-2015 2:21 PM Heathen has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 86 of 289 (747875)
01-20-2015 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
01-20-2015 10:39 AM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
I'm not interested in getting into the complexities of irish history. Too much.
Well then stop. Because you cannot cherry pick one battle or one rebellion and claim persecution of Protestants in Irish history. Even you must see this as unreasonable?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 01-20-2015 10:39 AM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 87 of 289 (747881)
01-20-2015 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
01-20-2015 10:39 AM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
I'm not interested in getting into the complexities of irish history. Too much
Of course not, because that would destroy your simplistic arguments.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 01-20-2015 10:39 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 01-20-2015 2:17 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 88 of 289 (747884)
01-20-2015 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Tangle
01-20-2015 11:50 AM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
I don't CARE if the reigning power is morally justified in being the reigning power, that's a separate issue that is not part of my argument. Military action ordered by the reigning power is legitimate, that's ALL I said, that makes Cromwell's action legitimate. You all may think the reigning power did not have a right to be there but that's a political issue that I'm not engaged in here and I don't care if you're right or wrong about that. Historically they were there and Cromwell's action was legitimate. He didn't act on his own the way the rebels did he was putting down, he acted from legitimate authority against a murdering horde.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2015 11:50 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Son Goku, posted 01-20-2015 3:54 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 89 of 289 (747885)
01-20-2015 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Theodoric
01-20-2015 1:10 PM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
I suspect it wouldn't destroy my arguments at all, it would just drag out the discussion to the point that nobody would be able to follow it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Theodoric, posted 01-20-2015 1:10 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 90 of 289 (747886)
01-20-2015 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Heathen
01-20-2015 12:34 PM


Irish Rebellion Catholic murderers of Protestants. IRA Catholic terrorists against Protestants.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Heathen, posted 01-20-2015 12:34 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Heathen, posted 01-21-2015 2:08 AM Faith has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024