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Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 438 From: Tempe, Az. Joined: |
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Author | Topic: A measured look at a difficult situation | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
We can abandon the circularity of a law being legitimate because it's a law - that's rather silly. For a law to have legitimacy it must be moral and supported by its population; law imposed on populations by dictatorships are neither moral, nor legitimate. Or perhaps you consider the law of imprisoning jews simply for being a jew was legitimate? No, I'd consider that one to be against God's Law and therefore to be disobeyed too. Should I be willing to die for disobedience if Sharia Law imposed the burqa on me? This is the level I have in mind, a law I'd regard as unjust but not worth dying to disobey it. Attempts to overthrow the whole system I'd probably support though,
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
It truly is amazing how you condemn any catholic violence, but justify all protestant violence.
Tribalism. It's the sort of thing that we criticize in primitive African tribes. Modern religions seem to have a more sophistemicated way of being primitively tribalistic.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: No Of course you wouldn't. That's all that's being said - if the victor's laws were the same as the loser's you would have no problem, if they weren't you likely would. you would regard one as legitimate and the other as not.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Strange moral equivalence there. The RCC papacy seeks world dominance, Protestantism doesn't, this is not tribalism.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You are using "legitimate" in a different sense than I am. I merely mean whatever is in legitimate authority because of being imposed by the reigning power at the time, period. You are looking for some kind of moral legitimacy that I'm not talking about, except when it violates God's laws, when I would feel obliged to disobey it.
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5
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The RCC papacy seeks world dominance, Protestantism doesn't, this is not tribalism.
I disagree. We have protestants repeatedly trying force their religion on others through legislation. We have protestants urging that the US go to war against Islam. Yes, definitely seeking world domination. But, of course, you were just defending your tribe.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Protestants don't have an Inquisition that murders people for not being Protestant. It's Catholicism that has the symbol of the cross on the globe, not Protestantism. And you would condemn us for using the political system to express our political views and call that seeking world domination? Wow. Thinking here is really extremely confused and weird. Is liberalism a tribe? Perhaps that's your tribe.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
It's particularly funny since the RCC actually has dominion over only 109 acres plus the actual land where embassies are located. In fact it is so small that embassies TO the Vatican have to be located outside Vatican City.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: You are using "legitimate" in a different sense than I am. I merely mean whatever is in legitimate authority because of being imposed by the reigning power at the time, period. You are looking for some kind of moral legitimacy that I'm not talking about, except when it violates God's laws, when I would feel obliged to disobey it. I'm going to have one last shot at this, then I'll give up. Forget the idea that law is legitimate if it's imposed by a reigning power. That's tautologous - it takes no account of whether the law is fair, moral or just plain evil. You have already accepted that if the reigning power was a dictatorship, imposing it's immoral law - such as imprisoning Jews - through force against the will of the people, it would be illegitimate. That's all you need to grasp. You would not regard that law as legitimate - you would not feel obligated to comply with it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Glad you admit the history is far more complex that you thought. This conflict has been going on for 800 years or more in various forms. Your simplistic, tribalist, 'Protestants as martyrs' view is unfounded, inaccurate and simplistic in the extreme.
Have the good grace to bow out of the discussion as with every post you make you highlight the ridiculousness of your interpretation of the tiny part of this history you are aware of.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
I'm not interested in getting into the complexities of irish history. Too much.
Well then stop. Because you cannot cherry pick one battle or one rebellion and claim persecution of Protestants in Irish history. Even you must see this as unreasonable?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
I'm not interested in getting into the complexities of irish history. Too much
Of course not, because that would destroy your simplistic arguments.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't CARE if the reigning power is morally justified in being the reigning power, that's a separate issue that is not part of my argument. Military action ordered by the reigning power is legitimate, that's ALL I said, that makes Cromwell's action legitimate. You all may think the reigning power did not have a right to be there but that's a political issue that I'm not engaged in here and I don't care if you're right or wrong about that. Historically they were there and Cromwell's action was legitimate. He didn't act on his own the way the rebels did he was putting down, he acted from legitimate authority against a murdering horde.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I suspect it wouldn't destroy my arguments at all, it would just drag out the discussion to the point that nobody would be able to follow it.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Irish Rebellion Catholic murderers of Protestants. IRA Catholic terrorists against Protestants.
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