Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   A measured look at a difficult situation
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 166 of 289 (748107)
01-22-2015 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Son Goku
01-22-2015 7:08 PM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
I know you can show a lot of historical and political complexities. That's why I keep bringing it back to the simple fact:
The Irish Rebellion was the murdering of innocent Protestants by Catholics, abe and no matter what Cromwell did his action was not the same thing as murdering innocents, it was aimed at putting a stop to the rebellion, period. /abe
and MOST of the IRA conflicts with Protestants were initiated by the IRA, not the Protestants. In fact I don't think you can show that the Protestants initiated any.
These make the point, along with similar situations in the many other countries I referred to.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Son Goku, posted 01-22-2015 7:08 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Theodoric, posted 01-22-2015 11:37 PM Faith has replied
 Message 188 by Son Goku, posted 01-24-2015 12:58 PM Faith has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 167 of 289 (748116)
01-22-2015 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Faith
01-22-2015 6:02 PM


Re: Numbers of martyrs of Rome
WTF?
I quoted 3. I can find lots more. You have not referenced any historians.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Faith, posted 01-22-2015 6:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 01-23-2015 12:07 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 168 of 289 (748117)
01-22-2015 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Faith
01-22-2015 8:11 PM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
And again everyone will tell you your simplistic interpretations do not represent the reality. Have you read anything anyone has posted? Or did you read them and you have decided it is all Jesuit propaganda?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Faith, posted 01-22-2015 8:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Faith, posted 01-22-2015 11:48 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 169 of 289 (748120)
01-22-2015 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Theodoric
01-22-2015 11:37 PM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
Then you are simply missing the point because the point has nothing to do with Irish politics, it's about the RCC in lots of countries.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Theodoric, posted 01-22-2015 11:37 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Heathen, posted 01-23-2015 5:22 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 170 of 289 (748123)
01-23-2015 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Theodoric
01-22-2015 11:34 PM


Re: Numbers of martyrs of Rome
OK, apparently I spoke too soon but it's going to take more exertion than I'm up to at the moment to check it all out so please be patient.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Theodoric, posted 01-22-2015 11:34 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 171 of 289 (748135)
01-23-2015 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Faith
01-22-2015 5:53 PM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
Faith writes:
I don't care how many were guillotined
Obviously, but you say it anyway. Just for information, it's none. That's because you're confusing France with Ireland. And you want us to take you seriously? Faith, I didn't think this was possible but you know more about geology that Irish history.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 01-22-2015 5:53 PM Faith has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


(2)
Message 172 of 289 (748139)
01-23-2015 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Faith
01-22-2015 5:53 PM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
I CAN say that by and large Protestants don't do that
"By and Large" Catholics don't do that either, What do you think, that Catholics are somehow imbued with the mental instinct to kill all Protestants?
This is horseshit.
Visit Ireland/Northern Ireland,
Take a look at the murals on the wall,
Attend some of the Orange Order Parades,
Listen to the songs that celebrate massacres and sing triumphantly about being "Up to our necks in Fenian Blood".
Read the news archives,
Read the history books.
Do some fucking research then reassess your bullshit, idiotic point of view.
the fact that the RCC murders people for not sharing their beliefs
This is not a fact, the Irish rebellion of 1641, as I have pointed out was a reaction to the erosion of the rights of Irish catholics in their own country by a foreign occupying nation. I have referenced this on at least three occasions.
You can see this in the IRA and in the Irish Rebellion too, where there is no cause other than that the victims were Protestants
This is completely false. I'll say it again. You know nothing.
Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.
Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.
Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.
Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 01-22-2015 5:53 PM Faith has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 173 of 289 (748140)
01-23-2015 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Faith
01-22-2015 11:48 PM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
the point has nothing to do with Irish politics,
What? the killing during the Irish rebellion has nothing to do with politics?
Have you taken leave of your senses?
The causes of the irish rebellion have been described, outlined, referenced over and over for you. Do some reading.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Faith, posted 01-22-2015 11:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 01-23-2015 10:20 AM Heathen has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 174 of 289 (748159)
01-23-2015 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Heathen
01-23-2015 5:22 AM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
The point I'm trying to make is independent of all politics, it's promoted by the RCC in whatever country it happens to decide to persecute non-Catholics.
My point, again, is so very simple: I'm trying to keep the focus on persecution for one's beliefs, as opposed to being punished for crimes such as persecuting people for their beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Heathen, posted 01-23-2015 5:22 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Heathen, posted 01-24-2015 4:05 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 175 of 289 (748161)
01-23-2015 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Heathen
01-22-2015 11:43 AM


On Rathlin Island Covenanter Campbell soldiers of the Argyll's Foot were encouraged by their commanding officer Sir Sir Duncan Campbell of Auchinbreck to kill the local Catholic MacDonalds, near relatives of their arch Clan enemy in the Scottish Highlands Clan MacDonald; this they did with ruthless efficiency, throwing scores of MacDonald women over cliffs to their deaths on rocks below.[42] The number of victims of this massacre has been put as low as 100 and as high as 3,000.
Many settlers massacred Catholics, particularly in 1642—43 when a Scottish Covenanter army landed in Ulster. William Lecky, the 19th century historian of the rebellion, concluded that, "it is far from clear on which side the balance of cruelty rests".[39]
Reviewing this post I see you are talking about armies. I'm trying to talk about unprovoked murders of people simply for their beliefs, outside of any other context such as army action etc., unprovoked persecutions such as what the Irish Rebellion was, and a great deal of the IRA attacks on Protestants was as well.
This action you've described sounds quite cruel, but what was the army doing there at all? Usually they come for some purpose but you don't mention that.
ABE: You also fail to give your source and in trying to track this down I found that there have been many incidents involving Rathlin Island and a page on what may be the one you are talking about gives a long long list of different events in what apparently was an ongoing war. So what exactly is your subject here?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Heathen, posted 01-22-2015 11:43 AM Heathen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 01-23-2015 11:48 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 176 of 289 (748175)
01-23-2015 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Heathen
01-22-2015 11:43 AM


Is this what you are saying:
The Irish Rebellion and the IRA actions were all reactions to the settling of Protestants in Northern Ireland.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Heathen, posted 01-22-2015 11:43 AM Heathen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 01-23-2015 11:52 AM Faith has replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(3)
Message 177 of 289 (748186)
01-23-2015 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Faith
01-23-2015 10:25 AM


Faith writes:
I'm trying to talk about unprovoked murders of people simply for their beliefs, outside of any other context such as army action etc., unprovoked persecutions such as what the Irish Rebellion was, and a great deal of the IRA attacks on Protestants was as well.
However, Faith you only refer to these as unprovoked because you have even admitted that you don't care to learn about the entire context that surrounded the conflicts in Ireland. You complain that we are mentioning things that are far removed from your point, but the reason we mention these items is that provide context for why there has been ongoing conflict within the country. Sure....if you start in 1640, the Irish rebellion was unprovoked. However, if you add in the context of the penal laws that had been put in place to restrict the Irish (both Royalists and Nationalists, which included primarily Catholics), the removal of lands from the control of those who owned them and donation of said lands to Protestant land owners, and the denial of any sort of political recourse which occurred for over one hundred years prior to the rebellion, it makes it look less like the religious conflict and more like individuals looking to take back their land from usurpers. Of course, the fact that loyalists and nationalists break down roughly along religious lines makes it difficult to see that the problem is more complex and even I fall into, as I did at the beginning of this thread, only looking at the conflict in the religious terms.
Likewise, the IRA was unprovoked only if you remove the previous 700-800 years of history, and more importantly, if you remove the attacks that occurred against Irish Nationalists by groups such as the IVF or British Security Forces during peaceful protest marches, such as what occurred on Bloody Sunday.
What you want us to do is agree that it was solely protestant persecution and avoid the other difficult factors that must be considered to understand why the aggression was so fever-pitched and why/how religious structures have had a hand in either mediating or exacerbating the problem that seems more concerned with whether or not Ireland should be sovereign or controlled by another country.
Finally, you said after my last message you said:
Faith writes:
If Ireland "won the war" after Cromwell's invasion, fine, then they became the authority. What is your point here? That wouldn't change Cromwell's previous legitimacy or the murder of innocent Protestants in the rebellion itself.
Ireland won the rebellion prior to Cromwell's invasion, not after. The rebellion was in 1641 and from 1642-1649 Ireland was Confederate Ireland and ruled by people within the country. Cromwell arrived to reclaim the lands for the British in 1649, so his authority was not from the rulers of Ireland but from another group trying to invade the country again and implement penal laws once more. And I agree, the murder of innocent protestants is immoral, to say otherwise is horrible, but the rebellion was more about land ownership, the ability to have a say in governance of the country, and the freedoms to own homes and property. Did they go overboard in some isolated cases? Yes, they did. The total death count was 4,000, including soldiers and defenders, during the Irish rebellion according to most major historical sources. Portadown (considered one of the worst massacres) was 100 individuals. What percentage were innocent civilians and what percentage were soldiers/defenders? Why would they have attacked Catholic civilians, who were similar to them with no land rights or property to confiscate back to the Irish people?

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 01-23-2015 10:25 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 178 of 289 (748189)
01-23-2015 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Faith
01-23-2015 11:03 AM


Faith writes:
The Irish Rebellion and the IRA actions were all reactions to the settling of Protestants in Northern Ireland.
The settling in Northern Ireland, combined with the forced removal of family lands and donation of said lands to incoming Protestant landowners (or even absentee landlords), while simultaneously removing any rights of the native population to vote or have control in the political process and future outcomes of their lives and forcing them into a position of inferiority with low survival rates, being forced to live on minimal crops because of forced exportation of foodstuffs. I'm sure religion played a part for some individuals and it was definitely used as a way to justify the actions taken during the tumultuous times.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 01-23-2015 11:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 01-23-2015 3:23 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 179 of 289 (748213)
01-23-2015 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
01-23-2015 11:52 AM


Do you admit that any of the forced conditions were deserved because of Catholic actions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 01-23-2015 11:52 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 01-23-2015 3:58 PM Faith has replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 180 of 289 (748217)
01-23-2015 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Faith
01-23-2015 3:23 PM


Faith writes:
Do you admit that any of the forced conditions were deserved because of Catholic actions?
Had these actions been enacted to affect the responsible parties I could see reasonable justification for the laws. However, the laws predominately affected the poor, working class Irish Catholics and drove them further into poverty, while not affecting the Vatican, and the power structure of the Catholic Church one iota. Remember, the penal laws were not put in place only after the Irish Rebellion, but were actually enacted over a hundred years before the rebellion. In this instance, I would classify this as throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Sure, the Protestants did not want Catholics to wrest power from their control once Protestants had taken it, but taking action against those who had no hand in it seems unjust to me. Again, I can see how they justified it, but because of the lack of effect on those who persecuted Protestants I would not consider the conditions deserved by the peasant population in Ireland that was placed under them.
And before you say that I am taking the Catholic Church's side on this, don't forget that I don't agree with their justification of their violent actions either. This is why I said the famous quote, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind", earlier. Any group can find a way to justify something, but simply because they justify it through previous actions does not make it moral, just, or proper treatment of fellow human beings.
Also, don't forget that I did agree that religion was at the heart of it for some people, just how it is for those practicing radical Islam or bombing abortion clinics. They use religion to justify actions that are abhorrent, which does not alter the moral standing of the actions taken. That quote was just in the previous message:
T12C writes:
I'm sure religion played a part for some individuals and it was definitely used as a way to justify the actions taken during the tumultuous times.
Finally, you did not answer the question about Cromwell. You stated that he had legitimate authority because Ireland was controlled by England when he brought his troops over. I have shown you that this is not the case, as Ireland won their freedom in 1642 and Cromwell did not arrive until 1649. So, what legitimate authority did Oliver Cromwell have when he brought troops over into a sovereign nation?
Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.
Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 01-23-2015 3:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Faith, posted 01-23-2015 4:34 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024