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Author Topic:   Atheists can't hold office in the USA?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 166 of 777 (748167)
01-23-2015 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by dwise1
01-23-2015 12:35 AM


Re: Yes, no, or "I don't understand the question"
Believing my doctrine is correct, apart from the fact that I've never said it's PERFECTLY correct, since even among the people I identify with we have small differences of doctrine, doesn't imply perfect knowledge of God, or anything about "understanding" God. I think you've confused some different concepts.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by dwise1, posted 01-23-2015 12:35 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 167 of 777 (748172)
01-23-2015 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by dwise1
01-23-2015 5:06 AM


Re: Find me a gnostic atheist
This is what is being referred to:
quote:
In The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins posits that "the existence of God is a scientific hypothesis like any other." He goes on to propose a continuous "spectrum of probabilities" between two extremes of opposite certainty, which can be represented by seven "milestones". Dawkins suggests definitive statements to summarize one's place along the spectrum of theistic probability. These "milestones" are:
1 Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung: "I do not believe, I know."
2 De facto theist. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. "I don't know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there."
3 Leaning towards theism. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. "I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God."
4 Completely impartial. Exactly 50 per cent. "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable."
5 Leaning towards atheism. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. "I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical."
6 De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."
7 Strong atheist. "I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung knows there is one."
Dawkins argues that while there appear to be plenty of individuals that would place themselves as "1" due to the strictness of religious doctrine against doubt, most atheists do not consider themselves "7" because atheism arises from a lack of evidence and evidence can always change a thinking person's mind.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 168 of 777 (748192)
01-23-2015 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by vimesey
01-23-2015 5:30 AM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Our minister said that he had taken to describing himself as a "non-theist". Though his stated reason was that it was for the shock value. By hitting that person with a term that he's not familiar with and for which he does not have pre-conceived notions, it hopefully forces that person to stop and listen. And hopefully to begin to think for once in his life.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 169 of 777 (748193)
01-23-2015 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Straggler
01-23-2015 10:41 AM


Re: agnostic anyone?
If you ask the question verbally it won't be possible for people to read too much into, and get hung up on, any capitalisation or the lack thereof.....
Precisely. When delivered verbally, we cannot see any capitalization so we have to rely completely on the words for meaning.
Tangle keeps writing "does not believe in god". Not "in a god". Not "in any god". Not "in the gods". Not "in gods". No, he keeps writing "in god". Delivered verbally, he would unambiguously be referring very specifically to a particular god, YHWH. If that is not what he wants to communicate, then he shouldn't persist in leaving out the indefinite article.
Hindus could answer "Yes. Lots of them". Thus obviously not qualifying as atheists.
dw writes:
But to Christians, believing in another god is the same thing as believing in none?
No. It obviously isn't atheism.
No, obviously not. And yet I have on multiple occasions encountered Christians who do misuse "atheism" to include theists who believe in other gods. Belief or disbelief in YHWH specifically is their only criterion.
Certainly wouldn't be the first time nor only time that Christians didn't know what they are talking about. Nor will it be the last, sad to say.
Edited by dwise1, : include

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 170 of 777 (748197)
01-23-2015 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by dwise1
01-23-2015 12:32 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
dwise1 writes:
Tangle keeps writing "does not believe in god". Not "in a god". Not "in any god". Not "in the gods". Not "in gods". No, he keeps writing "in god". Delivered verbally, he would unambiguously be referring very specifically to a particular god, YHWH. If that is not what he wants to communicate, then he shouldn't persist in leaving out the indefinite article.
Jeeze, how many times. An atheist does not believe in ANY gods, capitalised or lower case, definite article or not, singular or plural. YHWH or Neptune. How can a atheist be otherwise???? Why so dense?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by dwise1, posted 01-23-2015 12:32 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by dwise1, posted 01-23-2015 1:48 PM Tangle has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 171 of 777 (748199)
01-23-2015 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Straggler
01-23-2015 10:54 AM


Re: Find me a gnostic atheist
Straggler 10k+ finally revives the old thread with the Dawkins scale:
1 Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung: "I do not believe, I know."
2 De facto theist. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. "I don't know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there."
3 Leaning towards theism. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. "I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God."
4 Completely impartial. Exactly 50 per cent. "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable."
5 Leaning towards atheism. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. "I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical."
6 De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."
7 Strong atheist. "I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung knows there is one."
I particularly like the "live my life" qualifiers.
Some of us may recall that RAZD further argued that a 1 or a 2 or a 6 or a 7 would need to provide some kind of scientific EVIDENCE to support their position. He was especially targeting the 6's, I think, while calling himself a 3.
That is why my sig snarkily puts me at 5.7.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 172 of 777 (748202)
01-23-2015 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Tangle
01-23-2015 1:09 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Jeez, how many times?
Say what you mean instead of something different! If you mean "in ANY gods" then don't write instead, "in god".
Please demonstrate some competence in English!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2015 1:09 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2015 2:01 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 173 of 777 (748205)
01-23-2015 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by dwise1
01-23-2015 1:48 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
I would love to know how an atheist can believe in god. Or God. Or Gods or gods. Or the god. Or a God. How???
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by dwise1, posted 01-23-2015 1:48 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Phat, posted 01-23-2015 3:00 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 177 by dwise1, posted 01-23-2015 7:00 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 174 of 777 (748210)
01-23-2015 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Tangle
01-23-2015 2:01 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Tangle writes:
An atheist does not believe in ANY gods, capitalised or lower case, definite article or not, singular or plural. YHWH or Neptune. How can a atheist be otherwise????
True.
I would love to know how an atheist can believe in god. Or God. Or Gods or gods. Or the god. Or a God. How???
By changing ones belief.
You may see it as impossible. Quite likely it is impossible based on how you think,believe, and perceive reality now.
It would require an action so serious as to cause you to re-examine your belief.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

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 Message 173 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2015 2:01 PM Tangle has replied

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 175 of 777 (748216)
01-23-2015 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by RAZD
01-17-2015 5:43 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
And what about agnostic?
I don't know.

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 Message 67 by RAZD, posted 01-17-2015 5:43 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 176 of 777 (748226)
01-23-2015 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Phat
01-23-2015 3:00 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Phat writes:
By changing ones belief.
You may see it as impossible. Quite likely it is impossible based on how you think,believe, and perceive reality now.
It would require an action so serious as to cause you to re-examine your belief.
You've missed the point Phat, but bless you anyway.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Phat, posted 01-23-2015 3:00 PM Phat has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 177 of 777 (748234)
01-23-2015 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Tangle
01-23-2015 2:01 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
I would love to know how an atheist can believe in god. Or God. Or Gods or gods. Or the god. Or a God. How???
What the hell are you talking about? That has absolutely nothing to do with my message that you are "replying" to! Why are you trying to change the subject?
This is what I actually did write:
DWise1 writes:
Say what you mean instead of something different! If you mean "in ANY gods" then don't write instead, "in god".
Please read it this time.
Write what you want to say instead of something different from what you want to say. That should be such a simple and obvious concept. I am astonished that you seem to be incapable of understanding it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2015 2:01 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 178 of 777 (748262)
01-24-2015 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by dwise1
01-23-2015 7:00 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Do you want me to go back through this thread and point out to you all the posts I've made that say that an atheist does not believe in god or gods?
There cannot be confusion about how many and which gods an atheist doesn't believe in. If he believes in ONE he is not an atheist.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by dwise1, posted 01-23-2015 7:00 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 179 of 777 (748264)
01-24-2015 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Tangle
01-24-2015 3:25 AM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Tan writes:
If he believes in ONE he is not an atheist
You have said "he". In the name of absolute clarity I must insist that you revise your comments to make clear that girls, ladies, women, transsexuals, hermaphrodites and anyone else of a gender that does not or may not qualify one as a "he" can also be an atheist if the person in question does not hold a belief in the existence of any God/god/gods/goD/GOD/GODs/GODS/gOd/gOdS/Gods/GoDs/etc.
Furthermore can you please make it clear that a belief in the existence of dogs is perfectly acceptable

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petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 777 (748265)
01-24-2015 4:54 AM


The Foundation of the Rights of Man
The Declaration of Independence: A Transcription
IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world...............
If you will not sign this then I do not believe you should hold elective office in the United States.
I do not see how you can sign this as an atheist, since it clearly states that the Rights of Man come from God/Creator or from somewhere outside of the purview of man.
If you believe the Rights of Man come from the agreement of those around you, that is NOT the foundation of this country
I live in the only country in the world where my rights are not touchable by man because they come from God( or some place out of this universe) .

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