Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1891 of 2241 (748371)
01-25-2015 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1890 by jar
01-25-2015 10:22 AM


Re: The blind bias of modern man is all you have, not evidence
What you quote does not require the kind of inerrancy you claim. It says what I said it says: we are to trust its teaching, about God, about history, etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1890 by jar, posted 01-25-2015 10:22 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1893 by jar, posted 01-25-2015 10:27 AM Faith has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1892 of 2241 (748373)
01-25-2015 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1809 by Faith
01-22-2015 9:29 PM


Re: By Their Fruits
Faith writes:
Well, one thing that can't be achieved is belief in the Bible and devotion to Christ and the experience of being born again.
Very true.
And one thing that can't be achieved while believing the Bible is belief in other religions.
But that's not the point.
The point is... does it make a difference?
Does belief in the Bible make a difference? Or is it just the same as any other words of men?
Does belief in other religions make a difference? Or is it just the same as any other words of men?
Does belief that there is no God make a difference? Or is it just the same as any other words of men?
So far, nothing seems to make a difference.
Christian people, other religious people, non-religious people... we all have happy days, sad days, hopes, dreams, fears... When you take a step back and look at everyone, we all seem the same. A few groups seems to stand out a bit:
Those who are lucky enough to be educated.
Those with patience.
Those with spouses or families or friends that they love.
Those filled with motivation and hope.
...but nothing that is restricted to the Christian religion, or any specific religion or non-religion.
...it would seem that any Words of Man are just as powerful as the Word of God of the Bible.
With no difference, they seem equivalent.
Faith writes:
Stile writes:
If it truly was the Word of God... it would not be difficult to see the difference it could make.
Why?
Because that's the only way it carries any meaning.
If the Bible really is the Word of God, but it doesn't impart any difference from the Word of Man... what good is it?
We nevertheless tell everybody about it hoping you'll WANT to understand and be saved and want to do all you can to further that desire, because that would be reason to hope you are chosen.
Why would anybody care if they're chosen or not if it doesn't make any difference at all?
Faith writes:
Stile writes:
However, since there is absolutely no difference that it makes (in comparison to other words/works of men) we can confidently conclude that the Bible is nothing more than the words of men.
I wouldn't be so confident if I were you.
Why not? You have yet to show any difference that the Word of God actually makes.
I am very afraid of a God that doesn't make a difference, and punishes those who don't believe in Him. However, my faith in the virtues of love and hope go beyond such an ambivalent God.
Therefore, as long as the Word of God is equivalent to the Word of Man, there's no good reason to believe in any of it. It would be much better to spend my time focusing on love and compassion than it would be to spend any time focusing on a God that doesn't make any difference in the world.
We know that love and compassion make a difference.
We know that love and compassion can come from the Words of Man.
It is possible to add the Word of God on top of the message of love and compassion... but why dilute the message with unnecessary fluff?
If the Word of God doesn't add anything to the message of love and compassion, if it doesn't make a difference... then it only adds confusion and extra, unnecessary fluff.
Therefore, it's better to focus simply on the message of love and compassion alone. That way you won't get side-tracked from the important ideas.
You, Faith, are not immune to being side-tracked from the message of love and compassion. Sometimes you get so focused on getting people to believe in God that you even become frustrated on this message board. You routinely get hot-headed, throw insults, and frustrate yourself. None of that is a part of the message of love and compassion. That is simply a side-track you have because you're putting the message of belief in the God of the Bible ahead of His message of love and compassion. Which do you think He thinks is more important?
It is possible to have both. But not if you're getting hot-headed, throwing insults and frustrating yourself. When you do that, you are only proving to everyone around you that your belief in the Word of God doesn't add anything at all to the Words of Men. You're proving that the two are equivalent.
In some respects I get your point, Christians should act different and we often don't but on the other hand we ARE different from what we were before, I know I am, but you have no way of knowing that, and the ways we are different are interior more than exterior.
I fully believe that you are different from what you were before, especially on the inside.
Just as I am different from what I was before, also on the inside.
Just as every person is different from what they were before, even on the inside.
Again... you're only showing me that you are exactly the same as everyone else. Everyone grows and changes and learns new things and tries to improve their inner-self, that's what the Words of Man do for us. What different thing does the Word of God do for us, though? How does the Word of God improve upon the Words of Man? How is it any different?
Anyway, you shouldn't put such trust in external things, Stile.
I only try to know people by the fruits of their labours.
I was assuming that this might be some common ground we could start from.
It does seem very reasonable to me. But if you have another method, I'm open to hearing about it. Especially if it contains any benevolent difference from other Words of Man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1809 by Faith, posted 01-22-2015 9:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1893 of 2241 (748374)
01-25-2015 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1891 by Faith
01-25-2015 10:24 AM


Re: The blind bias of modern man is all you have, not evidence
Faith writes:
What you quote does not require the kind of inerrancy you claim. It says what I said it says: we are to trust its teaching, about God, about history, etc.
But we cannot trust its teaching about the history of Paul's conversion can we? It does not seem to be able to get that history down the same in four different accounts.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1891 by Faith, posted 01-25-2015 10:24 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1894 by Faith, posted 01-25-2015 10:31 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1894 of 2241 (748376)
01-25-2015 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1893 by jar
01-25-2015 10:27 AM


Re: The blind bias of modern man is all you have, not evidence
The four accounts are perfectly in accord with one another except for the one phrase about hearing or not hearing the voice which probably means hearing but not understanding. And this is such a secondary point, about what men with Paul would have told him they experienced, that has absolutely NO consequences for what Paul himself experienced, that you are just bending over backwards to smear the Bible and Bible believers, and you WILL be held accountable for that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1893 by jar, posted 01-25-2015 10:27 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1895 by jar, posted 01-25-2015 10:39 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1895 of 2241 (748378)
01-25-2015 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1894 by Faith
01-25-2015 10:31 AM


Re: The blind bias of modern man is all you have, not evidence
Faith writes:
The four accounts are perfectly in accord with one another except for the one phrase about hearing or not hearing the voice which probably means hearing but not understanding. And this is such a secondary point, about what men with Paul would have told him they experienced, that has absolutely NO consequences for what Paul himself experienced, that you are just bending over backwards to smear the Bible and Bible believers, and you WILL be held accountable for that.
Again Faith, as I have pointed out several times in this very thread, that is simply not true. Read what I wrote and documented in Message 1867.
The four account are not in perfect accord with one another.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1894 by Faith, posted 01-25-2015 10:31 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1896 of 2241 (748381)
01-25-2015 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1886 by Faith
01-25-2015 10:10 AM


Re: King Josiah's restoration of Israel to proper worship of their God
Faith writes:
Not only puny little demonic miracles but totally made-up miracles that nobody witnessed but the person who claimed they happened.
You mean like the burning bush, witnessed only by Moses?
What you mean by the "real world" is just what you personally have experienced.
No. The real world is what I'm aware there is evidence for. I've never been to Seattle but I believe it's very much part of real world because of all the evidence I've seen for Seattle.
Some people have experienced miracles but you won't believe them because you haven't.
I don't have to experience something to believe it exists. I haven't experienced a triple bypass either, but I believe they exist.
I don't see errors and inconsistencies, sorry. I see small discrepancies...
You're quibbling over terminology. By definition, anything with discrepancies can't be inerrant.
We are told to do two things: repent and believe. God didn't make it easy for people of a certain turn of mind to believe, did He?
Human psychology makes it incredibly easy for people to believe certain things despite an overwhelming lack of factual support. There especially seems to be an affinity in the human mind for the supernatural.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1886 by Faith, posted 01-25-2015 10:10 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1897 by Faith, posted 01-25-2015 10:50 AM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1897 of 2241 (748382)
01-25-2015 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1896 by Percy
01-25-2015 10:48 AM


Re: King Josiah's restoration of Israel to proper worship of their God
It's the TEACHING that's inerrant. The stuff that MATTERS.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1896 by Percy, posted 01-25-2015 10:48 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1899 by Percy, posted 01-25-2015 10:59 AM Faith has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1898 of 2241 (748383)
01-25-2015 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1887 by Faith
01-25-2015 10:11 AM


Re: The blind bias of modern man is all you have, not evidence
Faith writes:
...and only the originals are considered to be perfectly inerrant anyway.
If only the originals are inerrant, not the copies, why are you working so hard to prove the copies inerrant?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1887 by Faith, posted 01-25-2015 10:11 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1899 of 2241 (748384)
01-25-2015 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1897 by Faith
01-25-2015 10:50 AM


Re: King Josiah's restoration of Israel to proper worship of their God
Faith writes:
It's the TEACHING that's inerrant. The stuff that MATTERS.
If it's only the "TEACHING" that "MATTERS" that's inerrant, why are you defending mere incidentals as inerrant, such as 2 birds versus 7 pair?
I don't know that this matters to the discussion, but it bothers me every time "2 versus 7" comes up that the units do not match, 2 birds versus 7 pairs of birds. The comparison should use compatible units. That means it should be either 1 pair versus 7 pair, or 2 birds versus 14 birds. So your argument can't be "2 is part of 7". It should be either "1 is part of 7" or "2 is part of 14".
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1897 by Faith, posted 01-25-2015 10:50 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1900 by Faith, posted 01-25-2015 11:16 AM Percy has replied
 Message 1909 by Faith, posted 01-25-2015 12:08 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1900 of 2241 (748386)
01-25-2015 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1899 by Percy
01-25-2015 10:59 AM


Re: King Josiah's restoration of Israel to proper worship of their God
The two versus seven isn't a small discrepancy, it is about clean versus unclean animals which is necessary teaching, not cruciall important but necessary teaching, but also it's just so patently obvious that the Church read it as we do from the beginning and only debunkers make the claims you do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1899 by Percy, posted 01-25-2015 10:59 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1918 by Percy, posted 01-26-2015 8:21 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1901 of 2241 (748387)
01-25-2015 11:18 AM


Among the strange mistakes jar keeps making is that he completely overlooked Paul's account to Agrippa in Acts 26. He also claimed that Paul himself didn't give the accounts in Acts but he did, in both Acts 22 and Acts 26; it is only in Acts 9 that Luke tells the story in his words rather than Paul's.

Replies to this message:
 Message 1902 by jar, posted 01-25-2015 11:26 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1902 of 2241 (748388)
01-25-2015 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1901 by Faith
01-25-2015 11:18 AM


so let's add yet abother different vesion of the story
Faith writes:
Among the strange mistakes jar keeps making is that he completely overlooked Paul's account to Agrippa in Acts 26. He also claimed that Paul himself didn't give the accounts in Acts but he did, in both Acts 22 and Acts 26; it is only in Acts 9 that Luke tells the story in his words rather than Paul's.
So let's look at what Acts 26 says:
quote:
12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
So here is yet another different version of the story, again, no blindness, no companions on the road with him.
Faith I'm not sure how adding yet another version of the story helps your case since even if they are Paul's words being reported by the author of Acts, they are yet again another different set of words.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1901 by Faith, posted 01-25-2015 11:18 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1903 by Faith, posted 01-25-2015 11:33 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1903 of 2241 (748389)
01-25-2015 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1902 by jar
01-25-2015 11:26 AM


Re: so let's add yet abother different vesion of the story
That is exactly how anybody would tell a story that had many parts to it, repeating it over and over for different hearers, with different details in each telling. How utterly ridiculous to expect a word for word account every time a person tells about an experience. The problem is that debunkers have no common sense.
I happen to have an acquaintance who tells the story of her "near death experience" on Blog Radio to different audiences (No, she's not a Christian) and every time she tells it she either adds some new detail I'd never heard before or leaves out details or uses a phrasing that doesn't quite mean what she wanted to say. That's how things go in the Real World, jar, not in your ridiculous idea of what Inerrancy requires.
Or pick something more mundane: some experience you had on a trip you took years ago that was worth retelling to a dozen different people. You think you included every detail in every telling, didn't think of new details occasionally etc?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1902 by jar, posted 01-25-2015 11:26 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1904 by jar, posted 01-25-2015 11:37 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1904 of 2241 (748390)
01-25-2015 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1903 by Faith
01-25-2015 11:33 AM


Re: so let's add yet abother different vesion of the story
Faith writes:
That is exactly how anybody would tell a story that had many parts to it, repeating it over and over for different hearers, with different details in each telling. How utterly ridiculous to expect a word for word account every time a person tells about an experience. The problem is that debunkers have no common sense.
Thank you yet again Faith for agreeing that the Bible is not the Inerrant word of God but just the words of men.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1903 by Faith, posted 01-25-2015 11:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1905 by Faith, posted 01-25-2015 11:41 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1905 of 2241 (748391)
01-25-2015 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1904 by jar
01-25-2015 11:37 AM


Re: so let's add yet abother different vesion of the story
What I actually did was show your utter lack of common sense or sense of reality in defining inerrancy according to some literalistic totally blockhedded principle that exists only in your head. Untold millions have read all those accounts and known they are in accord with one another and in accord with Biblical inerrancy, but you have the effrontery to put your own rigid suppositions above theirs.
You don't know how to read, jar. Or you read at the level of a four year old.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1904 by jar, posted 01-25-2015 11:37 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1906 by jar, posted 01-25-2015 11:49 AM Faith has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024