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Author Topic:   A measured look at a difficult situation
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 197 of 289 (748477)
01-26-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Faith
01-25-2015 4:08 PM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
Faith writes:
Tempe posted something very long starting out saying that the Irish Rebellion was the same as the American war of independence or at least the first stage of it or something like that, and I simply refuse to compare a mass murder with that historical event.
And your issue is that you regard this as mass murder of Protestants and not a rebellion against a group who had taken land from the Irish and forced them into a position of subservience. The reason you see it as mass murder is that you accept without hesitation the source that you posted because the writer championed the Protestant cause. You have yet to provide evidence that his estimate of 200,000 killed is accurate. Even the Guardian article you posted considered the death toll to be closer to the historically accepted 4,000-12,000 deaths during the Irish Rebellion. If you want us to agree with you Mass Murder suggestion, you need to justify why the numbers your source claimed are accurate. Again, Why does he assume that Ireland should have had a 30% increase in population during a century when all of the rest of Europe saw a 33% decrease in population? So, using the historically accepted numbers, which would have included defenders and soldiers in addition to Protestant land holders, it seems far less like the mass murder you attempt to portray the rebellion as. Also, as you have already been shown that it was not Protestants that were uniquely targeted (as per Son Goku's information about other Protestant groups), but rather those who had usurped the land from the Irish and forced them deeper into peasantry. They conquered towns and expelled those who had stolen their lands, which did cause undue hardship and lead to hundreds of deaths, but what would you suggest the Irish do with those they felt had stolen the land of their forefathers once they had fought to reclaim it and won?
I did check to see if he made a case for the similarity and he didn't, simply said they were the same thing.
I did make a case for similarity based on the fact that both were rebellions, fought against the same empire, attempting to regain a measure of freedom that had been winnowed away throughout the history of their relationship with the parent country. Both were violent, with the Irish killing approximately 4,000 people and displacing hundreds of loyalists and the Americans killing 6,400 British/allied forces (30,000 if you consider all causes, not just battle) and displacing over 70,000 loyalists. Both groups were successful in their bid for freedom, with the United States setting up its government after the war and the Irish functioning as Confederate Ireland after the end of their rebellion.
Then, in both of these scenarios, Great Britain sent forces to reclaim these lands after these countries had run themselves following the success of their respective rebellions. For the Irish, it was the Cromwellian invasion, while for the Americans, it was the War of 1812.
Let me know if this helps clear up some of the similarities that I am seeing between these two conflicts.
If you'd like to continue to claim mass murder, Faith, you need to provide some evidence that they were specifically targeted for being Protestant, that the number of dead is closer to your claimed 200,000, and that the Irish were driving people into the wilderness out of spite, rather than as a means of reclaiming their land. Notice that the Americans also displaced a large majority of those who tried to remain loyal to England in their rebellion.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 01-25-2015 4:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Faith, posted 01-26-2015 12:18 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 202 of 289 (748613)
01-27-2015 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Faith
01-26-2015 12:18 PM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
Faith writes:
No, I see it as mass murder because it was mass murder. In fact I didn't even say they were Protestants this time. The victims were unarmed, the perps undressed them and herded them out to die. That's mass murder, that's not a battle over land. And the settlers weren't the enemy anyway, it was the English government.
Yes, situations like this occurred at the beginning of the rebellion, when it was still a fractured movement without any centralized leadership.
Wiki writes:
Historian Nicholas Canny suggests that the violence escalated after a failed rebel assault on Lisnagarvey in November 1641, after which the settlers killed several hundred captured insurgents.
So, again your statement that it was only the Irish killing settlers, and not both ways is incorrect. It was a war between the two groups. Yes, some civilians were killed, but not everyone was unarmed during this conflict. However, it is important to remember that this chaos did not reign for the entire rebellion and beginning in 1642 the Irish found leadership, which would continue the rebellion by obeying the rules of war.
Wiki writes:
The widespread killing of civilians was brought under control to some degree in 1642, when Owen Roe O'Neill arrived in Ulster to command the Irish Catholic forces and hanged several rebels for attacks on civilians. Thereafter, the war, though still brutal, was fought in line with the code of conduct that both O'Neill and the Scottish commander Robert Monro had learned as professional soldiers in continental Europe.
Finally, you state that the settlers weren't the enemy, and in technical terms, you might be correct since the British were the ones giving away the lands, but they were the ones living on the lands that were previously owned by the Irish. The Irish were taking back the lands that had been stolen, displacing the settlers and forcing them out into the cold. And yes, Faith, some people did this in a remarkably cruel way, I am not denying it, but it was war to reclaim their homeland and violent activities happen. Plus, there were massacres committed against the Irish during these same time periods, many of which have already been pointed out to you and that equal those you are discussing at this time.
Faith writes:
Cromwell was sent to put down the rebellion, that is not the same thing as the English coming over here to make another try at conquering America.
I am not sure how many times I have to explain this, but let's see if this one finally gets through.
The Irish Rebellion occurred in 1641, ending in 1642 with the Irish winning the war and setting up an Irish government to control Irish affairs. This was called Confederate Ireland. They won their rebellion. Cromwell, who arrived in Ireland in 1649, cannot be putting down a rebellion that ended 7 years before his arrival. He was making an attempt to reconquer Ireland after Great Britain had lost control of it to the Irish. How is trying to reconquer one place years after a rebellion ended different from trying to reconquer another place? Remember....Cromwell arrived 7 years after the rebellion ended.
Faith writes:
What I don't understand in all this is why the Protestants would put themselves in such a dangerous position in the first place.
Extremely cheap/freely available land at the expense of others? Ability to have more political power than the native population in a new area? I'm not sure why they would risk it, but I would hazard a guess that it could be seen similarly to how some American settlers were willing to take the risk of being in close proximity to dangerous native tribes for the available resources they could gain from the location.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Faith, posted 01-26-2015 12:18 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by caffeine, posted 01-28-2015 4:33 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 203 of 289 (748626)
01-27-2015 1:26 PM


However, then there are these scientists
Wrong thread...
Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : Posted in incorrect thread.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 210 of 289 (748772)
01-29-2015 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by caffeine
01-28-2015 4:33 PM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
Caffeine writes:
This isn't right. The wars in Ireland continued long after 1642, and the Confederates never controlled the whole country. They weren't fighting with Great Britain at the time, either, since there was no such beast. James I did use the term informally to refer to the personal union of the kingdoms of Scotland and England under himself, but that union had been torn asunder by the civil wars.
Understood, if there was not an actual victory then I will definitely stop using the war of 1812 as any sort of comparison. As for the great Britain thing, this is a fault of my terminology. I've never been comfortable with which descriptor to use for certain time periods in that area, so i tend to choose Great Britain simply for consistency of location. I will try to fix that error in the future.
Caffeine writes:
The main thing I'm getting at here is that anyone who tries to present the complex wars and revolutions of Britain and Ireland in the seventeenth century as some kind of simple 'Catholics vs. Protestants' struggle either doesn't know much about them, or is intentionally misrepresenting them for religious or nationalist motives.
I will freely admit I do not know much about them and that is another reason I wanted to start this thread. The main reason was to show Faith that her simple Catholics versus Protestants did not properly encompass all that was really happening during the struggles in Ireland. Plus, that one cannot make a judgement or use as examples of Catholic evilness the Irish conflicts, which had multiple combined causes that led to the events that unfolded and were not simply a religious war. Also, I realized that while I knew some of the history of the region, in my education process the history of Ireland was glossed over very quickly and I knew there would be some incorrect information I would have received. Even right off the bat, those with knowledge were able to show me it was not as religiously based as what we are taught here.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by caffeine, posted 01-28-2015 4:33 PM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by caffeine, posted 01-29-2015 12:31 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 212 of 289 (748781)
01-29-2015 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Faith
01-29-2015 11:19 AM


Faith writes:
Except the "Proddy" violence was all in the form of military retaliation, not wholesale murder of unarmed people by herding them out to die in the snow, or bombs blowing them up.
Really?
Wiki writes:
21st of May, 1966
A loyalist group calling itself the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) issued a statement declaring war on the Irish Republican Army (IRA). The group claimed to be composed of "heavily armed Protestants dedicated to this cause".[7] At the time, the IRA was not engaged in armed action, but Irish nationalists/republicans were marking the 50th anniversary of the Easter Rising. Some unionists and loyalists warned "that a revival of the IRA was imminent".
And then between May and June of the same year:
Wiki writes:
The UVF carried out three attacks on Irish Catholics in Belfast. In the first, a Protestant civilian died when UVF members firebombed the Catholic-owned pub beside her house. In the second, a Catholic civilian was shot dead as he walked home. In the third, the UVF opened-fire on three Catholic civilians as they left a pub, killing one and wounding the others.
How about we move forward a couple of years to 1968.
Wiki writes:
A civil rights march was to take place in Derry. When the loyalist Apprentice Boys announced its intention to hold a march at the same place and time, the Government banned the civil rights march. When civil rights activists defied the ban, RUC officers surrounded the marchers and beat them indiscriminately and without provocation.[9] Over 100 people were injured, including a number of MPs.
Then, we move into 1969 with more violence erupting.
wiki writes:
January 4th, 1969
A People's Democracy march between Belfast and Derry was repeatedly attacked by loyalists. At Burntollet it was ambushed by 200 loyalists and off-duty police (RUC) officers armed with iron bars, bricks and bottles. The marchers claimed that police did little to protect them. When the march arrived in Derry it was broken up by the RUC, which sparked serious rioting between Irish nationalists and the RUC.[10] That night, RUC officers went on a rampage in the Bogside area of Derry; attacking Catholic homes, attacking and threatening residents, and hurling sectarian abuse.
The Protestant forces even planted bombs and tried to pin them on the IRA, but it was actually the UVF and UPV that planted the bombs, not the IRA. So, they weren't bombing people? Could you correct this statement?
wiki writes:
Loyalistsmembers of the UVF and UPVbombed water and electricity installations in Northern Ireland, blaming them on the dormant IRA and on elements of the civil rights movement. The loyalists intended to bring down the Unionist Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, Terence O'Neill, who had promised some concessions to the civil rights movement. There were six bombings and all were widely blamed on the IRA. As a response, British soldiers were sent to guard installations. Unionist support for O'Neill waned, and on 28 April he resigned as Prime Minister.
So, we have now shown that they actually were participating in bombing people and risking civilian casualties and that they were the first to take action against the IRA during civil rights marches.
Source: Timeline of the Northern Ireland Troubles
So, how about herding them out to die....Did that ever happen (with the exception of the Famine, since you agree that forcing the Irish to starve was terrible treatment, I don't think we need to rehash that). Yes, you just don't see the forcing them out of their homes and confiscating their lands as driving them out into the cold and forcing the risk of death upon them. However, the English used laws to take away property and force them into poverty during a period of extreme cold within the continent. I'm pretty sure they were forced to deal with the cold as well and I doubt all the civilians that lost their homes were armed.
Finally, Faith, I would like you to look into how many Irish lost their lives during the rebellion. If you can justify Cromwell because it was a war, this rebellion was just as much of a war. The Irish wanted freedom and they did not only face unarmed Protestants. Yes, civilians were killed and that is terrible, but that does not mean that the English had no defenders there. This was battle and the Irish showed no quarter and when they retook towns, they expelled those who had originally stolen their lands from them.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 01-29-2015 11:19 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by caffeine, posted 01-29-2015 12:43 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied
 Message 217 by Faith, posted 01-29-2015 4:20 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 215 of 289 (748793)
01-29-2015 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by caffeine
01-29-2015 12:43 PM


Portadown
I do agree that it did occur from the Nationalist/Royalist side of the fights, such as the one that you mentioned at Portadown. I was more asking her if the loyalist side was ever guilty of driving people into the cold. I cannot find an explicit example that I would consider identical to those actions taken at Portadown by the N/R. However, I do see forcefully driving people into poverty during the little ice age as having some equivalency and could perhaps be seen as the motivation for driving settlers from their homes, since several peasants would have died from cold and starvation after lands were confiscated.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by caffeine, posted 01-29-2015 12:43 PM caffeine has not replied

  
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