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Author Topic:   Bill Nye vs. Ken Ham
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 326 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 586 of 824 (724953)
04-23-2014 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 585 by Faith
04-23-2014 8:03 AM


Re: Ken Ham Still Stupid, Angry
It was the commenters comment that I thought was funny.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by Faith, posted 04-23-2014 8:03 AM Faith has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 587 of 824 (724961)
04-23-2014 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 585 by Faith
04-23-2014 8:03 AM


Is There in Truth No Beauty? was Re: Ken Ham Still Stupid
...but attributed to Ham it has unfortunate implications.

Ham would have been best advised to have kept this mouth shut about this rather difficult (for him personally) and completely understandable move by the Smithsonian; receiving and displaying a donated nearly complete T-Rex skeleton.

With the proper attributions, isn't Ham's position still a bit difficult? Ham has a museum full of fake dinosaurs posed in made up situations that cannot be justified by the Bible [1], and he complains about the acquisition of the most complete real T-rex skeleton ever found. Isn't Ham's Ark, being subsidized by the state of Kentucky, the 5th poorest state in the union?

And then there is the "we're not racists, we hate everybody" crap straight from Ham's web page:

quote:
Some of these atheist bloggers claim we are racist because we discuss that certain people in Africa are descended from Noah’s son Ham. But they fail to explain that we teach that many different people groups descended from Ham, including the Chinese.

The T-Rex will attract tons of visitors to the Smithsonian. I am definitely going first chance I get.

[1] I am aware that some people believe that the Bible depicts men being contemporaneous with dinosaurs. I find that to be a stretch, but riding them Flintstone style as is shown in Ham's museum? Please. This crap does much harm to Christianity.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by Faith, posted 04-23-2014 8:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 588 by Faith, posted 04-23-2014 2:12 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 588 of 824 (725038)
04-23-2014 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 587 by NoNukes
04-23-2014 9:20 AM


Re: Is There in Truth No Beauty? was Re: Ken Ham Still Stupid
I'm not defending Ken Ham's position on the Smithsonian's acquiring a T Rex, it just bothered me that that particular quote was attributed to him.

However, I certainly understand his feelings about teaching kids evolution (which is not real science as I've said before).

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 587 by NoNukes, posted 04-23-2014 9:20 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 589 of 824 (725052)
04-23-2014 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 588 by Faith
04-23-2014 2:12 PM


Re: Is There in Truth No Beauty? was Re: Ken Ham Still Stupid
it just bothered me that that particular quote was attributed to him.

It's best to be accurate, however my point is that Ham actually said much stupider stuff. What is the point of complaining about a Natural History Museum accepting a donated T-Rex?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by Faith, posted 04-23-2014 2:12 PM Faith has taken no action

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 590 of 824 (744421)
12-10-2014 11:18 PM


Ark park won't get Kentucky tax incentives

Apparently they felt it might violate separation of jerk and state ... wait, I'll read that again.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 637 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 591 of 824 (748920)
01-31-2015 10:05 AM


Bill Nye post debate Update
quote:
Why Bill Nye Calls Evolution 'Undeniable' and Creationism 'Inane'

Darwin's theory explains so much of the world, from bumblebees to human origins, says the Science Guy.

With a jaunty bow tie and boyish enthusiasm, Bill Nye the Science Guy has spent decades decoding scientific topics, from germs to volcanoes, for television audiences. Last February, the former engineer defended the theory of evolution in a debate with young-Earth creationist Ken Ham, a vocal member of a group that believes the Earth is only 6,000 years old. Nye's decision to engage Ham kicked up plenty of criticism from scientists and creationists alike.

Photograph by John Davisson, Invision/AP

The experience prompted the celebrity science educator to write a "primer" on the theory of evolution called Undeniable: Evolution and the Science of Creation. In his new book, Nye delights in how this fundamental discovery helps to unlock the mysteries of everything from bumblebees to human origins to our place in the universe.

Who do you hope will read this book?

Grown-ups who have an interest in the world around them, people coming of age who have an interest in science, people who still want to know how the world works.

This is the big concern of mine with respect to the organization Answers in Genesis and Ken Ham and all those guys: their relentless, built-in attempts to indoctrinate a generation of science students on a worldview that is obviously wrong.

I worry about these kids—they're part of my society. We can't raise a generation of students who don't understand the fundamental idea in all of life science, any more than you want to raise a generation of kids who don't understand chemistry or physics or arithmetic.


bold added.

This is part of why he went to the lion's den to speak truth to propaganda.

quote:
Undeniable: Evolution and the Science of Creation

Sparked by the a provocative comment to BigThink.com last fall, and fueled by a highly controversial debate with Creation Museum curator Ken Ham, Bill Nye's campaign to confront the scientific shortcoming of creationism has exploded in just a few months into a national crusade. In this book, he expands the points he has made, and claims that this debate is not so much about religion versus science, as about the nature of science itself. With infectious enthusiasm, he reveals the mechanics of evolutionary theory, explains how it is rooted in the testable and verifiable scientific method, and why it is therefore a sound explanation of our beginning. He argues passionately that to continue to assert otherwise, to continue to insist that creationism has a place in the science classroom is harmful not only to our children, but to the future of the greater world as well.


Getting the message out to those willing to listen.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 592 of 824 (749376)
02-04-2015 1:38 AM


Ham To Sue For Divinely Appointed Tax Rebates
Creationist group sues Kentucky over $18 million in tax rebates for Noah’s Ark theme park.

Well, that's real Jesusy of him.

And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.

Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

But then Jesus added, lo, verily, unto him that won't give you a tax rebate, thou shalt sue his ass, for of such is the kingdom of heaven.


Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 5:17 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 593 of 824 (749385)
02-04-2015 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 592 by Dr Adequate
02-04-2015 1:38 AM


Re: Ham To Sue For Divinely Appointed Tax Rebates
As usual with you, Dr. A., you have an inability to distinguish between the level of individual relationships and the state. Jesus taught individuals in relationship with individuals, and it is wrong to apply his teaching to governments and nations and states and how we are to deal with them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 592 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2015 1:38 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 594 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2015 7:20 AM Faith has taken no action
 Message 595 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2015 12:58 PM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 594 of 824 (749394)
02-04-2015 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 593 by Faith
02-04-2015 5:17 AM


Re: Ham To Sue For Divinely Appointed Tax Rebates
Now it turns out that Kurschner has revealed himself to be gay, which explains the whole thing,

You are right Faith!. Given that the issue is taxes, Dr Adequate should have cited 'Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's'.

Or maybe "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities".

and it is wrong to apply his teaching to governments and nations and states and how we are to deal with them.

Yeah, good point. Except Jesus had something to say about government and nations too.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 5:17 AM Faith has taken no action

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 595 of 824 (749418)
02-04-2015 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by Faith
02-04-2015 5:17 AM


Re: Ham To Sue For Divinely Appointed Tax Rebates
As usual with you, Dr. A., you have an inability to distinguish between the level of individual relationships and the state. Jesus taught individuals in relationship with individuals, and it is wrong to apply his teaching to governments and nations and states and how we are to deal with them.

Okay then, let's look at the Bible for "the level of individual relationships and the state":

* Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right [...] Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

* Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. [...] Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.

Now, look, the state (thank God) is not preventing Mr. Ham from building his theme park. They're just saying that they won't give him tax rebates for doing so. If that's the worst persecution that Christians get, then shouldn't they say "The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted" and then let off fireworks and have a big party 'cos they're living in the USA and not the Roman Empire?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 5:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 596 of 824 (749432)
02-04-2015 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 595 by Dr Adequate
02-04-2015 12:58 PM


Re: Ham To Sue For Divinely Appointed Tax Rebates
First you quoted teachings for individuals and now you are quoting the ONLY teachings in the NT that involve our relation to the state.

And it doesn't apply across the board. Christian enterprises have normally been tax-exempt so this situation with Ham is probably a shocking exception, and that's reason enough to challenge it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 595 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2015 12:58 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 597 by PaulK, posted 02-04-2015 5:30 PM Faith has taken no action
 Message 600 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2015 6:28 PM Faith has replied
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 597 of 824 (749438)
02-04-2015 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 596 by Faith
02-04-2015 5:04 PM


Re: Ham To Sue For Divinely Appointed Tax Rebates
quote:

And it doesn't apply across the board. Christian enterprises have normally been tax-exempt so this situation with Ham is probably a shocking exception, and that's reason enough to challenge it.

The crazy things that you make up. No, just calling your business Christian does NOT exempt you from taxes. For-profit enterprises - and Ark Encounter was set up as a for-profit enterprise - pay taxes. So unless you're shocked by Ken Ham deciding to do things that way, your complaint has no basis in reality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 596 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 5:04 PM Faith has taken no action

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 89 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 598 of 824 (749441)
02-04-2015 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 595 by Dr Adequate
02-04-2015 12:58 PM


Re: Ham To Sue For Divinely Appointed Tax Rebates
Now, look, the state (thank God) is not preventing Mr. Ham from building his theme park. They're just saying that they won't give him tax rebates for doing so.

I am not clear on this... is AIG being denied 501(c) status or are they only being denied incentives to build the park? It does seem as if the park should qualify for 501(c) status.

It seems, from the article you referenced, that what the state had a problem with is that AIG would not pledge to not discriminate against hiring non-Christians, which would put AIG at odds with receiving public monies. However, their are ways around this, like having employees sign an agreement that you will support the institution's "mission." In other words, you don't have to BE a Christian, you just have to pretend to be one (I mean act like one) as long as you work there. There are plenty of non-profit Christian institutions that hire only "Christians" yet still meet federal guidelines.

I guess I don't get what the problem is and why AIG thinks they are entitled to tax rebates if they won't follow the rules.

I suspect that Ham is having trouble getting this project launched and is trying to make it out to look like it was the Big Bad Wolf who has blown his house down.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 599 of 824 (749442)
02-04-2015 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by herebedragons
02-04-2015 6:07 PM


Re: Ham To Sue For Divinely Appointed Tax Rebates
quote:

I am not clear on this... is AIG being denied 501(c) status or are they only being denied incentives to build the park? It does seem as if the park should qualify for 501(c) status.

AiG has 501(c) status. They chose to set up a nominally separate for-profit organisation to build the Ark Park. This is the organisation that is trying to claim the tax incentives and ignore the laws against discrimination.

quote:

I guess I don't get what the problem is and why AIG thinks they are entitled to tax rebates if they won't follow the rules.

I suspect that Ham is having trouble getting this project launched and is trying to make it out to look like it was the Big Bad Wolf who has blown his house down.


That could be the case. We do know that AiG had to buy quite a number of the junk bonds issued to finance the building.


This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 600 of 824 (749443)
02-04-2015 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 596 by Faith
02-04-2015 5:04 PM


Re: Ham To Sue For Divinely Appointed Tax Rebates
First you quoted teachings for individuals and now you are quoting the ONLY teachings in the NT that involve our relation to the state.

Er, Faith, what's your point? If these are indeed "the ONLY teachings in the NT that involve our relation to the state", then doesn't that make them pretty much conclusive as to how Christians should relate to the state? 'Cos of that being all that Christians have to go on as to how they should relate to the state?

If I quoted everything in the Bible against adultery, would you be saying, "Well, those are the ONLY things the Bible says against adultery"? Yeah, there's only gonna be a finite number of mentions of any given thing. How many times does your God have to say something before you take it seriously?

And it doesn't apply across the board

Yeah, it's only the fucking Word of God. Screw it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 596 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 5:04 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 601 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 6:45 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
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