Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2110 of 2241 (748957)
01-31-2015 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 2109 by Faith
01-31-2015 10:07 PM


Re: Genesis 7
Tradition is only evidence of tradition Faith.
Faith writes:
Also internal dating of the scriptures and references throughout them back to Moses as well as to other Old Testament leaders and prophets.
Please present that evidence Faith.
Faith writes:
It's really a marvel how a whole "scholarly" or "scientific" system can be invented out of whole cloth to make whatever case you want to make, but it does require ignoring the vast accumulation of evidence against it.
Is there some reason that you have never been able or willing to produce any of that vast accumulation of evidence?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2109 by Faith, posted 01-31-2015 10:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2111 by Faith, posted 01-31-2015 10:30 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2112 of 2241 (748962)
01-31-2015 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 2111 by Faith
01-31-2015 10:30 PM


Re: Moses
Faith, none of that is and more valid evidence that Moses ever existed than Morte d'Arthur is evidence that King Arthur lived. Do you have any idea what evidence is? Like your so called evidence, Le Morte d'Arthur is a compilation of tales, just what you present.
Facts though are quite difference.
There is positive evidence that neither Biblical Flood ever happened.
The God described in Genesis 1 is entirely different than the God described in Genesis 2&3.
The phrase "son of God" was added at a latter date by a different hand at the beginning of Mark and the ending was also edited.
Matthew and Luke duplicate almost (sometimes exactly) parts of Mark and also of a second source.
Passage that use the honorific Yahweh depict a very anthropomorphic God while passages that use the honorific Elohim depict an abstract aloof, overarching God.
These are examples of evidence.
Granted there are people who still believe the Bible to be inerrant or the earth young or in special Creation or that there was a Biblical Flood or that the Exodus happened or the Conquest of Canaan but they are simply wrong and have never been able to provide any evidence to support their position just as you have never provided any evidence.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2111 by Faith, posted 01-31-2015 10:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2113 by Faith, posted 01-31-2015 10:52 PM jar has replied
 Message 2115 by Faith, posted 01-31-2015 11:13 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2114 of 2241 (748964)
01-31-2015 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 2113 by Faith
01-31-2015 10:52 PM


Re: Moses
Faith writes:
The Jews all looked back to Moses as their great leader throughout their history, Jesus and three of His disciples actually saw Moses, and the Jews continued to teach about him throughout the New Testament. None of this has anything in common with fiction. It is history and that is indeed evidence of Moses.
We know you believe that but how is that any different than the Le Morte d'Arthur beyond the fact that we actually have a good idea of who wrote the latter?
Evidence Faith, evidence.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2113 by Faith, posted 01-31-2015 10:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2116 of 2241 (748968)
01-31-2015 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2115 by Faith
01-31-2015 11:13 PM


Re: Moses
Faith writes:
You can't have "positive evidence" that the Flood never happened. You cannot prove a negative, jar, you ought to know that. There is tons of evidence that it DID happen even apart from the scriptures which are evidence enough. The strata, the fossils. IMMENSE evidence, worldwide too. The sort of formation and contents that cannot rationally be explained by normal processes except in the minds of those who need so badly to believe in evolution they can't recognize reality.
Of course I can have positive evidence that neither Biblical Flood ever happened and I have given it to you time after time after time after time.
Only liars, the willfull ignorant and the deluded think a Biblocal flood ever happened.
The proof is really simple, so simple any honest person will gree.
If the Biblical Flood happened then every living creature MUST show a genetic bottleneck and at the same period of time.
Faith writes:
Elohim is the generic Semitic word for "God," while Yahweh, or Jehovah is His actual Name as given only to His own people starting with Abraham. Both terms apply to the true God in scripture.
Except as usual that is just bullshit. The fact is as has been pointed out to you that the terms come from different traditions and always describe different gods.
Have you ever actually read the Bible Faith?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2115 by Faith, posted 01-31-2015 11:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2117 by Faith, posted 01-31-2015 11:38 PM jar has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2118 by Faith, posted 01-31-2015 11:40 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2133 of 2241 (749035)
02-01-2015 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 2132 by Percy
02-01-2015 10:28 AM


Re: Do we really want to discuss the flood here?
The Flood that didn't happen as well as the heliocentric solar system and the Conquest of Cannan and Exodus that never happened are important to this thread since it was those facts that began the modern criticism of inerrancy. These are all settled issues so there is nothing really to discuss unless Faith actually wishes to present some evidence instead of just asserting that it exists. Should she wish to finally present evidence for examination a new thread would be great but for the purpose of this thread I believe it is sufficient to just point out that they were the original evidence that the Bible is not inerrant.
None of this is new or revelation and there is solid evidence for each of those facts going back hundreds of years.
Edited by jar, : left out a not

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2132 by Percy, posted 02-01-2015 10:28 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2134 by Percy, posted 02-01-2015 11:35 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2143 of 2241 (749098)
02-02-2015 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 2107 by Faith
01-31-2015 9:32 PM


Re: An irreconcilable clash of world views
Faith writes:
Scripture makes it clear that we can't understand the things of God by our own fallen intellect, we must be born again from above and be led by the Spirit of God.
That you claim such nonsense is simply more proof that the Bible is not inerrant and it most certainly not clear from scripture that man is fallen. The idea of "The Fall" is great marketing but most definitely the creation of man and not scripture. An even stronger case but not as profitable for clergy and the salvation salesmen is that according to the Bible man has risen. Calvin and the Papacy are the two best carny barkers trying to peddle that product and both have been very successful but it is the modern evangelical "Born Again" con man that has really reaped the biggest profits.
If you actually bother to read what is written in Genesis 2&3 the God character in the story even says that man was not diminished, not fallen but "22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2107 by Faith, posted 01-31-2015 9:32 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2147 by Golffly, posted 02-02-2015 1:56 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2146 of 2241 (749120)
02-02-2015 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 2145 by ringo
02-02-2015 11:03 AM


Re: An irreconcilable clash of world views
And wealth.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2145 by ringo, posted 02-02-2015 11:03 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2151 of 2241 (749159)
02-02-2015 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 2147 by Golffly
02-02-2015 1:56 PM


Re: An irreconcilable clash of world views
It depends on the period. Early Hebrew/Judaism was polytheistic; Yahweh was there local god but there were many other gods. Often gods were attached to a place and ineffective on some other gods territory. A great example is found in 2 Kings. It's the story of Naaman, a Syrian who had leprosy is cured by following the instructions of Elisha. Once cured he asked to take some soil back with him so he could worship Elisha's god.
2 Kings 5 writes:
17 And Naaman said, Shall there not then, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules' burden of earth? for thy servant will henceforth offer neither burnt offering nor sacrifice unto other gods, but unto the Lord.
18 In this thing the Lord pardon thy servant, that when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the Lord pardon thy servant in this thing.
So there is an acknowledgement that even worshiping other gods is acceptable and that Yahweh was the God of Israel and Judah and attached to the soil of that area.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2147 by Golffly, posted 02-02-2015 1:56 PM Golffly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2152 by Golffly, posted 02-02-2015 2:41 PM jar has replied
 Message 2155 by Golffly, posted 02-02-2015 2:56 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2153 of 2241 (749163)
02-02-2015 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 2152 by Golffly
02-02-2015 2:41 PM


Re: An irreconcilable clash of world views
Those are not at all contradictory.
Read them again.
They talk about the God of a people. Neither of those says that there is only one god.
For most of the Old Testament the idea of multiple gods is accepted. Of course the Israelites were sure their god had the biggest dick of them all.
What is said in most of the Old Testament is that the Hebrews should not have any other gods.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2152 by Golffly, posted 02-02-2015 2:41 PM Golffly has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2157 of 2241 (749172)
02-02-2015 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2155 by Golffly
02-02-2015 2:56 PM


Re: An irreconcilable clash of world views
Neither did the Hebrews. It depended on the era and tradition.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2155 by Golffly, posted 02-02-2015 2:56 PM Golffly has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2176 of 2241 (749222)
02-03-2015 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 2173 by NoNukes
02-02-2015 9:28 PM


Re: An irreconcilable clash of world views
Not everyone understands that the plural of you is you'all.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2173 by NoNukes, posted 02-02-2015 9:28 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2177 by Golffly, posted 02-03-2015 9:40 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2210 of 2241 (749360)
02-03-2015 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2209 by Faith
02-03-2015 10:27 PM


Re: Hell and salvation -- or not -- therefrom
Faith writes:
Orthodox traditional Christianity offers salvation from sin and Hell through the death of the incarnate God in our place, and if you want I can find the necessary Bible support, but I'm sure you couldn't care less. In any case no other religion offers salvation from sin and Hell; you're on your own trying to be "good" enough to avoid Hell.
Ah yes, that is the product orthodox Christianity sells. Too bad there is no product reliability laws that can be used to put them in jail where they belong.
No other con man is so successful and so secure as the Christian Cult of Ignorance snake oil salesman!
But of course that has absolutely nothing to do with this topic and is simply another attempt by you to try to palm the pea, change the subject, misdirect attention, avoid responding to facts or reality and to try again to market the "Get outta hell free cheap ass Christianity con".
To bad Jesus says in the Bible that you are full of shit and that you will be judged based on what you do, not what you profess.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2209 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 10:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2211 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 10:39 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2212 of 2241 (749365)
02-03-2015 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 2211 by Faith
02-03-2015 10:39 PM


back towards the topic
Faith writes:
Quite true, we've left the topic, but as I'm sure you know I can produce the Bible support for my orthodox traditional view that Jesus died for our sins. Once we are saved then our deeds count and will count as part of our salvation, but not until we've received the salvation He paid for on the cross.
And as I'm quite sure everyone knows I can produce the Bible support that shows it is not necessary to receive anything. That's more great evidence that the Bible is just the words of man and filled with contradictions and inconsistencies.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2211 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 10:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2213 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 10:57 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2226 of 2241 (749400)
02-04-2015 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 2213 by Faith
02-03-2015 10:57 PM


Re: back towards the topic
Faith writes:
Only you can't produce your Bible support without pretending mine doesn't exist, whereas I can take yours into account along with mine.
I don't doubt that for a second Faith, you like all the apologists seem to be able to make up anything.
But that does not change the point which is that the contradictions and inconsistencies and even the necessary existence of apologists and commentators provide proof that the Bible is simply the words of men.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2213 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 10:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 2229 of 2241 (749413)
02-04-2015 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 2223 by Faith
02-04-2015 6:27 AM


Re: Hell and salvation -- or not -- therefrom
Faith writes:
See that's the problem with discussions about Calvinism, which I keep telling myself I'll never ever get into again and I'm sorry I did again. I've believed it because I believe it's Biblical but when others don't see it that way it only causes unnecessary problems and it's dangerous even to try to discuss it. it doesn't MATTER what Calvin said, forget Calvin.
But all of the evidence shows that you do not believe Calvinism or what Calvin actually said just as you don't believe what the Bible actually says. You continue to provide proof that Biblical Christians believe what fallen man says and not what the Bible says.
No one questioned the fact that the vile evil God that Calvin markets can be supported Biblically, that is a given, but that is not the only god described in the Bible, Thank God. It is the very fact that the Bible is so inconsistent, has so many contradictions, that is its saving grace. Fortunately it is possible to believe the Bible and still reject the dismal, dirty, disgusting, demeaning, defiling Christianity marketed by Calvin.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2223 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 6:27 AM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024