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Author Topic:   Bill Nye vs. Ken Ham
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 576 of 824 (721079)
03-03-2014 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 574 by JonF
03-03-2014 12:36 PM


Re: Bill Nye Debate Sparked Funding 'Miracle'
Under the terms of the offer, if they hadn't sold all the bonds they'd have to refund the money.
And they couldn't do that. As their greatest prophet said. "Never give a sucker an even break".

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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 597 of 824 (749438)
02-04-2015 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 596 by Faith
02-04-2015 5:04 PM


Re: Ham To Sue For Divinely Appointed Tax Rebates
quote:
And it doesn't apply across the board. Christian enterprises have normally been tax-exempt so this situation with Ham is probably a shocking exception, and that's reason enough to challenge it.
The crazy things that you make up. No, just calling your business Christian does NOT exempt you from taxes. For-profit enterprises - and Ark Encounter was set up as a for-profit enterprise - pay taxes. So unless you're shocked by Ken Ham deciding to do things that way, your complaint has no basis in reality.

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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 599 of 824 (749442)
02-04-2015 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by herebedragons
02-04-2015 6:07 PM


Re: Ham To Sue For Divinely Appointed Tax Rebates
quote:
I am not clear on this... is AIG being denied 501(c) status or are they only being denied incentives to build the park? It does seem as if the park should qualify for 501(c) status.
AiG has 501(c) status. They chose to set up a nominally separate for-profit organisation to build the Ark Park. This is the organisation that is trying to claim the tax incentives and ignore the laws against discrimination.
quote:
I guess I don't get what the problem is and why AIG thinks they are entitled to tax rebates if they won't follow the rules.
I suspect that Ham is having trouble getting this project launched and is trying to make it out to look like it was the Big Bad Wolf who has blown his house down.
That could be the case. We do know that AiG had to buy quite a number of the junk bonds issued to finance the building.

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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 620 of 824 (749477)
02-05-2015 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 613 by Faith
02-04-2015 9:05 PM


Re: Ham To Sue For Divinely Appointed Tax Rebates
quote:
Perhaps you are right about that as his strategy although it's hard to imagine that anyone wouldn't know AIG is a religious organization and raise any relevant questions in advance.
Ark Encounter is nominally separate from AiG, and is organised as a for-profit enterprise. Now it is pretty obvious that the Ark Encounter is all about promoting sectarian religious views and that they were offered the exemptions despite that. So it's hard to say that there's any actual religious discrimination against them.
The problem only started when Ark Encounter engaged in obvious religious discrimination in their hiring practices as the
Lexington Herald-Leader reports.
And might I ask why you think that listening only to AiG's claims is going to give you a fair assessment of the situation ? Do you really think that they would openly admit that the lawsuit is baseless ?

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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 621 of 824 (749478)
02-05-2015 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 618 by Faith
02-04-2015 11:28 PM


Re: AIG needs Christian employees but why should the Ark Park?
quote:
I'm not sure any of us has this figured out yet
The only real question is WHY AiG is launching this meritless lawsuit. Have they really fooled themselves into believing their own propaganda, or do they hope to use it is a fund-raising exercise.
quote:
There is no doubt that this IS a tourist attraction, a theme park, a business enterprise that expects to make a profit, and as such it should qualify for the tax rebate that is offered to exactly this sort of business, so there wouldn't have been any subterfuge in applying for that rebate on these grounds.
Well there are questions about the study on expected visitor numbers, so there is a possibility of subterfuge even there. But they were awarded the tax exemptions until they started posting discriminatory job adverts.
quote:
It is run, however, by a known religious organization, that hires only Christians because it wouldn't make sense to have nonChristians doing the apologetics work they do.
And AiG do just that with no problems at all. This isn't about AiG, it's about the for-profit Ark Encounter company which only exists to build and run the theme park. This is not some obscure detail it's a central - and well-known fact of the case. If AiG have been blurring that distinction then they aren't being honest about it.
quote:
But is that perfectly reasonable hiring practice by the ministry itself the reason they are now being disqualified for the rebate or is it because the theme park is also to hire only Christians, and if the latter I'm not sure why that would be necessary.
It's because the theme park decided to hire only Christians. It all started with a job advert for a Computer-Aided Design technician that required applicants to identify their Church membership, state their belief on the age of the Earth, provide a Salvation Testimony, a Creation Belief Statement and agree to the AiG Statement of Faith.
source
Now I guess that you could explain all that away by saying that they accidentally used a form intended for AiG, and not for the theme park.
But AiG themselves have ruled out that defence, and the current line is that they can do all that for any job with Ark Encounter.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 623 of 824 (749489)
02-05-2015 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 622 by Faith
02-05-2015 2:24 AM


Re: AIG needs Christian employees but why should the Ark Park?
quote:
You are all jumping to the worst possible construction on Ham's motives.
I've been following this story for some time. I've yet to hear of any honest justification for the claims of religious discrimination, and you haven't either.
quote:
I'd guess something more benign of course, maybe he's just in the habit of hiring Christians and needs to get around to rethinking it, maybe he thinks the project would be more successful if all-Christian, or maybe he thinks the state is being too heavy-handed in telling him who he can hire and wants to make a case for religious freedom at that level. I don't know.
And none of those guesses can justify the lawsuit. Ham has had months to rethink, and chose to stay on course and file a lawsuit instead. He hasn't been prevented from hiring only Christians either. He has just lost tax exemptions after intentionally, knowingly and openly going against the conditions attached. The conditions are not in themselves religiously discriminatory either - anyone who refused to hire Christians to work in a for-profit enterprise would be disqualified under the same regulations.
No, you need to offer evidence of actual religious discrimination to justify Ham's lawsuit.

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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 644 of 824 (749539)
02-05-2015 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 643 by Faith
02-05-2015 3:46 PM


Does it really matter - at this stage - whether he has a "good" reason for discriminating ?
Even if he does, it doesn't mean that he has a sound basis for his lawsuit.
Can you tell me HOW he is being discriminated against because of his religion ? Or did the lawyer forget to mention that ?

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 Message 643 by Faith, posted 02-05-2015 3:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 650 of 824 (749545)
02-05-2015 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 645 by Faith
02-05-2015 4:04 PM


quote:
Apparently some atheist organizations barraged the governor to rescind the approval of the rebate.
And he's going to court with THAT ?
It looks more and more like a publicity stunt.

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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 653 of 824 (749549)
02-05-2015 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 652 by Faith
02-05-2015 4:24 PM


Interesting how he neglects to mention that discrimination issue. When it's the real reason that he isn't getting the incentives.

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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 676 of 824 (749596)
02-06-2015 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 659 by Faith
02-05-2015 7:41 PM


Of course it doesn't matter who complained. What matters is the reason for denying the exemptions.
According to this article the State only wants a written assurance that the Ark Encounter will obey Federal employment law. Not unreasonable after they've already tried to break it. And AiG refuse to do that.

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 Message 659 by Faith, posted 02-05-2015 7:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 678 by Faith, posted 02-06-2015 3:35 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 679 of 824 (749601)
02-06-2015 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 678 by Faith
02-06-2015 3:35 AM


quote:
Seems like they think they can make a case against the state
But on the evidence so far, they can't. All the state needs is a valid reason to deny the exemptions, and it seems that they have one.

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 Message 678 by Faith, posted 02-06-2015 3:35 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 680 by Faith, posted 02-06-2015 4:25 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 681 of 824 (749603)
02-06-2015 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 680 by Faith
02-06-2015 4:25 AM


But on what grounds? The reason looks pretty good.
It would be interesting to see the state regulations on these tax exemptions - because a boilerplate requirement to follow all applicable laws would sink the AiG case.

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 Message 680 by Faith, posted 02-06-2015 4:25 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 695 of 824 (749666)
02-07-2015 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 693 by Faith
02-06-2015 8:38 PM


Is it even possible to be pro-First Amendment without coming into conflict with the Religious Right? I don't see how.

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 765 of 824 (749783)
02-08-2015 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 763 by Faith
02-08-2015 2:05 PM


Re: First Amendment flimflam
quote:
If it were true that it protects Fundamentalist Christianity then the Oregon bakers would not have been driven out of business and subjected to harassment by LGBT vandals and thugs and fined a ruinous punitive amount for simply obeying the Bible
The First Amendment has never given anyone carte blanche to break the law by claiming a religious justification. It was never intended to. And I note that the Oregon bakers were DISOBEYING the Bible anyway...
Really you shouldn't pontificate on things that you don't understand. Which includes pretty much everything, I'm afraid.
I do understand that you're upset that people refuse to obey you, dare to criticise you, even commit the "sin" of telling truths that you don't like. But the fact that you are upset about these things rather indicates that the problem is with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 763 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 2:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 767 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 2:28 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 768 of 824 (749788)
02-08-2015 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 767 by Faith
02-08-2015 2:28 PM


Re: First Amendment flimflam
quote:
Yup, revisionist interpretation of the Bible for starters, and new invented laws that make a cause celebre out of what used to be regarded as sin and now the legal system and all the LGBT thugs and even Brits who have no business commenting on any of this can persecute us to their heart's content and call it righteous and legal and good.
In FACT, Faith, you've never come up with a Biblical justification for refusing to provide a cake for a gay wedding.
The laws are NOT new, the only change is to extend their protection to gays. And you accepted that the laws are Constitutional even when in conflict with religious belief. So you've got no honest basis for complaint there either.
And in reality I was quite willing to have a reasonable discussion of the rights and wrongs of the law. Which in your mind justifies calling me a "Nazi"
Really, rant and rave and bully all you like. It won't help you against the truth.
quote:
I congratulate the devil, he's done his work well
Sucking up to your master won't help either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 767 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 2:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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