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Author Topic:   Bill Nye vs. Ken Ham
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 478 of 824 (719610)
02-15-2014 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by Faith
02-15-2014 5:50 PM


Examples
the point is that the theory of evolution itself promotes an anti-morality
Where?
and in its early years it did justify a very ugly racism and Nazism itself.
For example:
In the light of God's truth the notion of created equality and unaliable right is falsehood and infidelity ... The time has come when civil liberty, as revealed in the Bible and in Providence, must be re-examined, understood, and defended against infidel theories of human rights. - The Reverend F A Ross, "Slavery Ordained Of God"
The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example. - Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina
I draw my warrant from the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to hold the slave in bondage. - Rev. Thomas Witherspoon, Presbyterian, of Alabama
We therefore hold that abolitionism, which deems slavery a sin and therefore considers every slave holder a criminal and strives for its eradication, is the result of unbelief in its development of nationalism, deistic philanthropy, pantheism, materialism, and atheism. - CFW Walther, Lutheran
Oh, wait, those are examples of something else. Er, how about this ...
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.
--- Adolf Hitler, My New Order
... no, still not an example.
Surely we can find a Nazi talking about Darwinism somewhere ... yup. On a list of books to be burned. Along with "Die Literatur des Marxismus, Kommunismus, Bolschewismus" ("the literature of Marxism, Communism, Bolshevism") and "Die liberalistisch-demokratische Tendenz- und Gesinnungsliteratur" ("Literature with liberal-democratic tendencies and attitudes") they also wished to suppress writings "deren Inhalt die falsche naturwissenschaftliche Aufklrung eines primitiven Darwinismus [...] ist" ("which contain the pseudoscientific exposition of primitive Darwinism").
They also condemned "Alle Schriften, welche die christliche Religion und ihre Einrichtungen, den Gottesglauben [...] verhhnen, verumglimpfen oder verchtlich machen" ("All works which mock, libel, or make contemptible the Christian religion and its institutions, belief in God ...")
So that's not really an example either. Still, I'm sure you have some examples. Don't you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by Faith, posted 02-15-2014 5:50 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 480 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-15-2014 8:26 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 480 of 824 (719613)
02-15-2014 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 478 by Dr Adequate
02-15-2014 7:56 PM


Re: Examples
Wait, good news! I found someone who believes in the inferiority of black people, and attributes it to an evolutionary process. He expresses his sentiments in this ... charming ... little ditty.
The poor little fellow who went to the south
Got lost in the forests dank;
His skin grew black, as the fierce sun beat
And scorched his hair with its tropic heat,
And his mind became blank.
Who is this staunch Darwinian? Oh, wait, it's George McCready Price, the father of Flood Geology.
See, as creationists never tire of telling us, they believe in microevolution, and in evolution as a degenerative process. That's just Creationism 101. If they want to use it as a justification for their racist views, there's nothing to stop them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-15-2014 7:56 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-15-2014 8:45 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 487 of 824 (719622)
02-15-2014 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 483 by marc9000
02-15-2014 8:47 PM


Re: This debate was typical creationist pap vs science
True, adjustments are made providing they don't meaningfully threaten naturalism/atheism.
So far, none of that sort have been required. We'll see what happens if there's ever, y'know, substantive evidence requiring such adjustments.
Though it can sometimes take plenty of time - the Piltdown man hoax lasted for a full 40 years before being reluctantly exposed. It only took a few days or weeks before the book Darwin's Black Box and its author were demonized. It would have been nice if he'd have had 40 years trial time.
IIRC, the evidence that finally put an end to Piltdown Man was the invention of fluoride dating, so yeah, someone had to invent it first. Apparently finding a flaw in Darwin's Black Box wasn't so difficult.
There are many different denominations of Biblical literalists who have some different ideas about what the Bible says and how people should react to them.
I never said creationists were consistent, I said they were stubborn.
It doesn't have to be bought in the country of its origination too? (Percy is all excited about YOUR implication, and is blaming me for it - I love this place)
That paragraph didn't make much sense, would you like another shot at it?
Probably would
And another think about that?
Well, you're just now pointing them out, I'm sorry I couldn't have foreknowledge of what you were going to post.
Well, it is quite obvious, isn't it? But OK, if you didn't think of it, you didn't think of it. So would you now like to acknowledge that Bill Nye wasn't dishonest in raising the point?
How honest are you in ignoring my point that Bill Nye has far left political opinions ...
Is it dishonesty if I don't reply to every darn thing you post? Frankly I tune out your fulminations about the political leanings of your opponents as background noise. (See here for example.)
If you like, I'll take an interest in your point. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that Bill Nye has "far left political opinions"?
You do a fair job of pretending you're from the U.S. but you're really not, are you?
I have never pretended to be from the U.S. I do, however, live here.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by marc9000, posted 02-15-2014 8:47 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 489 by marc9000, posted 02-15-2014 9:16 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 490 of 824 (719625)
02-15-2014 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 488 by marc9000
02-15-2014 9:09 PM


Re: This debate was typical creationist pap vs science
Well then I stand corrected on the "no one got shot" statement of mine, but the rest is true. It has only been the recent, mass shootings in the U.S. schools that have inspired costly measures to try to prevent them from happening in the future, and unlike most of your examples that were the results of a single conflict, recent school massacres have involved shootings of people unknown to the shooter, where the shooter then takes their own life. Kind of like the shooter thought humans to be of no more importance than animals, that life is all just random chance.
If we're going to play post hoc ergo propter hoc, then how about we blame the addition of "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance?
Or the widespread availability of semi-automatic weapons? Hey, that might actually make sense.
Interestingly, there was more evolution in schools before Scopes then there was in, say, the 1950s. So if your idea is correct, schools should have been more shooty up until 1925. No? No.
It's very simple, Christians generally admit that they have unchangeable beliefs, and atheists aren't honest in likewise admitting their own beliefs are unchangeable.
So "godly honesty" means telling dumb lies about atheists? Mmhm, that sounds very godly. Not so much with the honesty, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by marc9000, posted 02-15-2014 9:09 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 491 of 824 (719626)
02-15-2014 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by marc9000
02-15-2014 9:16 PM


Re: This debate was typical creationist pap vs science
If it doesn't make much sense TO YOU, then maybe you're the one with the problem that needs to take "another shot" at something, such as reading it and the relevant posts about it again. When I'm facing a whole herd of atheists, I have more to do than drop back to sixth grade reading instruction to help you understand.
So, you're not going to pretend it made sense, then? OK.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by marc9000, posted 02-15-2014 9:16 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 499 of 824 (719634)
02-15-2014 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 497 by DevilsAdvocate
02-15-2014 10:20 PM


Ergo Propter Hoc
Since 1900, the highest mass murder rate was in 1929.
... just four years after the Scopes trial effectively ended the teaching of evolution in public schools. See, when creationists go about teaching their nihilistic doctrine that "the heart of man is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things" and that "a man hath no preeminence above a beast", who can be surprised if it has a corrosive effect on public morality?

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 501 of 824 (719636)
02-15-2014 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 496 by Faith
02-15-2014 10:16 PM


Re: This debate was typical creationist pap vs science
The problem is that apparently Darwin himself misread his own theory in this way ...
How is this apparent?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by Faith, posted 02-15-2014 10:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by Faith, posted 02-15-2014 10:49 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(5)
Message 506 of 824 (719641)
02-15-2014 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 502 by Faith
02-15-2014 10:49 PM


Re: Darwin's racism
He considered the "savage" human races to be inferior due to not having evolved as far as the white races.
But that's not what he said, Faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 502 by Faith, posted 02-15-2014 10:49 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 573 of 824 (721060)
03-03-2014 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 563 by Faith
02-17-2014 3:38 PM


Re: Trashing Darwin?
He also didn't propose the extermination of the "lower" races, of course, but there is the implication that it would be a good thing if it happened. Especially when he ends his paragraph by saying that it would be better if there were an even greater gap between civilized man and the apes due to civilized man's evolving even higher while the "lower" races die out.
But he doesn't say that it would be better. That's not his point at all. He just says that in this case, there would be a bigger gap. His point, paraphrased, is this: "You say that the evolution of man from other primates is unlikely, because the gulf between them is large. But in the future, the gulf could become even larger --- would that make the evolution of man from other primates more unlikely? Of course not. Well then."

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 581 of 824 (724943)
04-23-2014 12:04 AM


Ken Ham Still Stupid, Angry
Creationists Say Smithsonian Is Pushing "Religion of Naturalism"
You know what those evil-utionists have done now? They've bought a T. Rex. This obviously violates the Establishment Clause, like everything else other than teaching Young Earth Creationism in public schools, which is dandy.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 590 of 824 (744421)
12-10-2014 11:18 PM


Ark park won't get Kentucky tax incentives
Apparently they felt it might violate separation of jerk and state ... wait, I'll read that again.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 592 of 824 (749376)
02-04-2015 1:38 AM


Ham To Sue For Divinely Appointed Tax Rebates
Creationist group sues Kentucky over $18 million in tax rebates for Noah’s Ark theme park.
Well, that's real Jesusy of him.
And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
But then Jesus added, lo, verily, unto him that won't give you a tax rebate, thou shalt sue his ass, for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 5:17 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 595 of 824 (749418)
02-04-2015 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by Faith
02-04-2015 5:17 AM


Re: Ham To Sue For Divinely Appointed Tax Rebates
As usual with you, Dr. A., you have an inability to distinguish between the level of individual relationships and the state. Jesus taught individuals in relationship with individuals, and it is wrong to apply his teaching to governments and nations and states and how we are to deal with them.
Okay then, let's look at the Bible for "the level of individual relationships and the state":
* Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right [...] Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.
* Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. [...] Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
Now, look, the state (thank God) is not preventing Mr. Ham from building his theme park. They're just saying that they won't give him tax rebates for doing so. If that's the worst persecution that Christians get, then shouldn't they say "The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted" and then let off fireworks and have a big party 'cos they're living in the USA and not the Roman Empire?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 5:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 596 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 5:04 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 598 by herebedragons, posted 02-04-2015 6:07 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 600 of 824 (749443)
02-04-2015 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 596 by Faith
02-04-2015 5:04 PM


Re: Ham To Sue For Divinely Appointed Tax Rebates
First you quoted teachings for individuals and now you are quoting the ONLY teachings in the NT that involve our relation to the state.
Er, Faith, what's your point? If these are indeed "the ONLY teachings in the NT that involve our relation to the state", then doesn't that make them pretty much conclusive as to how Christians should relate to the state? 'Cos of that being all that Christians have to go on as to how they should relate to the state?
If I quoted everything in the Bible against adultery, would you be saying, "Well, those are the ONLY things the Bible says against adultery"? Yeah, there's only gonna be a finite number of mentions of any given thing. How many times does your God have to say something before you take it seriously?
And it doesn't apply across the board
Yeah, it's only the fucking Word of God. Screw it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 596 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 5:04 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 601 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 6:45 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 603 of 824 (749452)
02-04-2015 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 601 by Faith
02-04-2015 6:45 PM


Re: Ham To Sue For Divinely Appointed Tax Rebates
Guess I wasn't very clear. The admonition to obey the state holds as long as there is no conflict with other commands of God, where the principle "We should obey God rather than man" applies. Hiring Christians is a borderline issue I think, not sure how it should be resolved.
Look, unless God told Ken Ham to build the Ark ... but even if he did, he can go right ahead and build the Ark. But he needn't expect any special favors. Did God command him to get tax rebates? No? Well then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 601 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 6:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 604 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 8:32 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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