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Author Topic:   Bill Nye vs. Ken Ham
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 778 of 824 (749803)
02-08-2015 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 777 by NosyNed
02-08-2015 4:37 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
So this God inspired document, (what is the expression "God breathed", God dictated, ... I dunno) is unable to be lifted above the dirt and squalor of the time of writing? So it a necessary evil to the author of the bible?
God wisely takes people where they are. They wouldn't listen to Him if He told them to give up their slaves.
To help a bit; who is the one speaking in the quotes that Percy gave?
The cursing of Canaan was said by Noah.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 785 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-09-2015 10:18 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 786 of 824 (749829)
02-09-2015 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 785 by New Cat's Eye
02-09-2015 10:18 AM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
If you know the Old Testament at all you should know that the history of Israel was of disobedience to God down the centuries until they were finally brought under severe judgment. Only makes sense that He would avoid pushing them to do something that would be a real hardship for them to do. Abolishing slavery had to wait until a more opportune time in history.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 791 of 824 (749836)
02-09-2015 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 787 by subbie
02-09-2015 11:50 AM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
No, none of it was a piece of cake, but if even the moral law is impossible to follow, why would God impose the physical hardship of the loss of a slave's work on them as well? In a way it would also be a hardship for the slaves themselves since many of the slaves in ancient Israel had become slaves to pay off a debt they couldn't otherwise pay, so what then? Debtor's prison? Which didn't exist in those days.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 792 of 824 (749837)
02-09-2015 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 790 by New Cat's Eye
02-09-2015 12:05 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
You know how you tell us that we're all terrible sinners in God's eyes and we simply can't hold up to his morality?
Why don't you apply the same argument there: he needs to wait until a more opportune time in history.
But that time came, somewhere around 33 AD when God sacrificed Jesus on the cross to pay our debt for all those commands we couldn't keep.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 796 of 824 (749842)
02-09-2015 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 795 by New Cat's Eye
02-09-2015 12:52 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
You're still not making sense.
God created us with a insatiable sex-drive but forbids us to have impure sexual thoughts.
Marriage is His solution to that. abe: But also when our impulses are out of control that's just part of the fallen nature due to original sin plus personal sin, and all that is what Jesus died to pay for. /abe
But you know what, not having slaves is too hard so that's cool - have at them.
I'm sorry, but this has to be one of the most retarded arguments you could make.
You are comparing apples and oranges it seems to me. Our personal sin life doesn't have anything to do with our means of daily survival, such as in the economic structure that depended on slavery in those days. Jesus died to pay our personal sin debt. But the world takes a long time to correct its economic and political situation, and all that is a completely different level from personal individual sin anyway..
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 795 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-09-2015 12:52 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 797 by NosyNed, posted 02-09-2015 1:27 PM Faith has replied
 Message 799 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-09-2015 1:57 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 798 of 824 (749846)
02-09-2015 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 797 by NosyNed
02-09-2015 1:27 PM


Re: Sin No More! But only if it isn't inconvenient.
You are actually saying that if it is too inconvenient or economically difficult then we shouldn't decry slavery too much????
Not at all. I'm saying that in ancient times it was too much a part of life to make an issue of it. It wasn't the right time. The time came much later in history.
You God is one of relative morality? It was not great but okish when it was too difficult to do away with and since the advancement of science and the industrial revolution made slavery economically obsolete (in some of the world) it is no longer ok at all?
it was never "OK," it was merely tolerated as a necessary evil and laws were given to make the slaves' lives easier.
God puts up with all kinds of things because of human weakness, for which we should be grateful. As Jesus explains in the Sermon on the Mount He put up with frivolous divorce by the Jews, for instance, because of "the hardness of their hearts," but that "God hates divorce" and Jesus is now commanding us against divorce. God also "winked at" rampant idolatry among the heathen due to their ignorance, says Acts 17:30, but "now commands every man to repent."
Of course, if someone today could demonstrate economic hardship then it would be okish again by your standards. I guess some pimps running slaves as whores would support you.
But of course I'm saying no such thing.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 800 of 824 (749849)
02-09-2015 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 799 by New Cat's Eye
02-09-2015 1:57 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
As a matter of fact adoption into the family was an option given in the Law.
Of course we're dealing with human limitations, but we're also dealing with a merciful God who takes them into account and doesn't impose rules on us that are too hard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 799 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-09-2015 1:57 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 802 of 824 (749851)
02-09-2015 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 801 by New Cat's Eye
02-09-2015 2:02 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
It would help if you'd try to get things into their right context. We will certainly answer for all our sins UNLESS we trust in Jesus to save us. God has provided everything we need for our weaknesses, including power to overcome them if we trust in Him but certainly the payment of our sin debt. I really don't know what you are so enraged about. You are continuing to lump personal sin together with the cultural economic system that depended on slavery. Those are two entirely different things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 801 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-09-2015 2:02 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 803 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-09-2015 2:29 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 804 of 824 (749855)
02-09-2015 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 803 by New Cat's Eye
02-09-2015 2:29 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
But I'm not making any of this up, it's information I've absorbed from years of Bible study and sermons and so on, not that I'm sure I have it all right but I'm sure I'm in the ballpark.
But again, according to you, he was incapable of providing the ancients a way to overcome their weakness in needing slaves.
But that's a nonsensical attempt to make it equivalent to personal moral sin, which I guess is one way you are confused about all this. Owning slaves was part of the economy, it had nothing to do with personal sin. Someone owed you money and you had some animals that needed tending, they came and tended your animals to pay off the debt. You fed and housed them. If they stuck around a long time and raised a family they might choose to make the relationship permanent and in effect become part of your family. Or, after the debt was paid, or perhaps in a Jubilee year when all debts were to be cancelled, you released them to go make their own lives. Maybe you are thinking of it too much like the racist slavery of America?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 808 of 824 (749879)
02-09-2015 10:20 PM


"Owning people is not OK. Ever."
I guess nobody here has any sense of history whatever. I believe perhaps a Roman or a Greek philosopher may have considered that slavery is a bad thing once upon a time, although I'm not entierely sure about that, but neither the Romans nor the Greeks gave up their slaves. It's been a pretty universal practice throughout history and across cultures. And then, guess what, BASED ON THE BIBLE it was finally condemned in modern times, and yet it is the God of the Bible you are all attacking.
Here's how the thinking goes about this interpretation you reject. Since slavery was finally abolished on the teachings of the Bible, about humanity's being made in the image of God, about God-given liberty, about loving one's neighbor, about equality based on the common ancestors of all humanity in Adam and Eve, and so on and so forth, we understand that it is not approved by God.
That then raises the question that has been raised here, why He didn't do away with it back in Bible times. And the only answer to that, considering that it is NOT approved by Him, is that there had to have been practical reasons. God is fair, God is prudent, God is reasonable. Since this is just a possible interpretation perhaps a better one is possible, but this one really does make a lot of sense based on the known facts.
abe: as for the other question about individuals, I'm guessing but I believe that fewer and fewer Christians owned slaves after the early years, for the very reasons given. How it got established again in Christendom much later is a question. But since the Bible doesn't outright condemn slavery and since some Old Testament passages have been used to justify it, perhaps that's the reason.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 810 of 824 (749883)
02-09-2015 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 809 by DrJones*
02-09-2015 10:29 PM


"Bound?" No, I said He's prudent and reasonable, He isn't going to do something to wrench a whole society into ruins even for the best of reasons, besides which as I started out saying, the people would not obey such a law, it would hit them as too absurd and it would wreck their relationship with God completely, which didn't go too well down the centuries anyway.
And again, all ye who think you are above God, remember again that NO SOCIETY ANYWHERE EVER abolished slavery until it was abolished on the basis of the Bible. If it hadn't been for the Bible you'd all be happily living with slavery and justifying it.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 812 of 824 (749886)
02-09-2015 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 811 by jar
02-09-2015 10:41 PM


Re: The Bible says God does wrench a whole society into ruins even when there is no reaso
When a society comes under judgment for sin then it may be destroyed. That's not the context here, which is life in normal times.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 814 of 824 (749889)
02-09-2015 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 813 by jar
02-09-2015 10:51 PM


Christian basis of abolition
Wilberforce who was responsible for England's giving up the slave trade, argued against slavery on the basis of his Christian principles. John Newton, who had been an officer on a slave ship, gave it up and preached against it when he converted to Christ. The abolitionists in America made their case based on the Bible
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 816 of 824 (749891)
02-09-2015 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 815 by jar
02-09-2015 11:06 PM


Re: The Bible says God does wrench a whole society into ruins even when there is no reaso
the fact that some justified slavery based on the Bible doesn't change the fact that it was abolished based on the Bible.
Wilberforce argued the case against the slave trade in Parliament on the basis of his Christian principles. Newton gave up his part in the slave trade and condemned it based on his newfound Biblical Christian faith. Abolitionists in America were often Christian preachers.
The Constitution took a lot from the Bible it never acknowledged. Same with Western Civilization in general including the principles of the Enlightenment. All that grew out of the Christian mindset of the west.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 819 of 824 (749898)
02-10-2015 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 818 by subbie
02-09-2015 11:48 PM


Re: Faith proves John Adams was not a seer.
I meant it in the sense that the concepts were inherited from the Christian mindset of western civilization. The very idea of government by Constitution owes something to that mindset. Compare Mayflower Compact. The idea of liberty which was fought for in the Revolutionary War was preached from Galatians 5:1, "stand fast in the liberty with which Christ has made us free and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." True that was just the inspiration for the war but freedom is surely one of the biggest ideas supported in the Constitution. The idea of checks and balances is considered to be the constitutional answer to the Fall, recognizing that all humanity is subject to misusing power if put in that position. The Fall is clearly biblical, has no other source in human thought.

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