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Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Immigration -- what's the big deal? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
This doesn't have to be complicated, there is a lot of demand for farm workers and other low wage positions, there is room, there is opportunity ....
Back at the start of this country there was virtually unregulated immigration, and I don't see any moral justification for more regulation or barriers to immigration. If you could get here that was enough.
quote: We should also believe that the ideals expressed in the Declaration of Independence applies to all people. There should be one single basic requirement: that you want to become a US citizen (and anyone not wanting to become a citizen would need a work visa or student visa to stay longer than a typical vacation). One of the defining elements in early immigration of poor people was that they came as indentured servants ...
quote: A system that did see some abuse (just as many current "illegal" immigrants are often abused), but which provided opportunity to those who came and wanted to become citizens. Seems to me that this program could be revived with some modifications:
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
There was also a population shortage. There is a shortage of farm workers now.
That's it? If you want to be a U.S. citizen to make it easier to fly planes into buildings then that should be just fine? See Message 2. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Cool. A caste system primarily for brown people who pick our oranges. Temporary and for all immigrants.
Would you do a self critique on the math behind this one? Would a mom and dad with say a handicapped infant meet this requirement? One parent and one child that cannot work. An extra burden but not oppressive.
That was just to pay their fare. Indentured servitude should not be the guidelines for immigration policy. Curiously I think of it as being a citizen on probation, learning and earning the right to be a citizen. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Excellent. A non-response. Exactly what I anticipated getting from you. Curiously you offered nothing worth responding to other than an ad hominem fallacy. Nor did you offer anything cogent as an alternative. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I don't mind. But I haven't actually expressed any opinion other than not treating people like crap once we've decided to let them in. I'm not in favor of letting people in legally, but then coming up with rules that keeps their families out. So you have no objection to a simpler system that could be applied to both legal immigrants and ones that have come by nefarious means -- a equal path to citizenship where you earn your card by the same process. With a more open door policy the issue of "jumping to the front of the line" becomes moot -- the "line" is your 5 years of work.
... . On the other hand, even unskilled labor has value and is in demand here. What would be the point of charging someone $30,000 or making the system so complicated they have to pay a lawyer such a fee, when we apparently want them here so we can pay them crap wages?
Another argument for a living minimum wage for all workers and a simple way to become a citizen -- work your 5 years, learn english and american history in night schools and then pass the test. Historically an influx of workers has stimulated the economy with real growth in small businesses and local companies. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Don't you think that things are different today than they were at the start of the country? The first laws were fairly simple:
quote: The ""free white persons"" is fairly consistent with the Constitution restrictions on voting rights. These requirements were broadened in late 1800's to allow blacks The first restrictive\exclusive immigration laws were ~ 1900:
quote: quote: We still see xenophobia in discussions of immigration law regarding latinos and muslims ...
If we get too full or cannot afford to immigrate more people, then that would justify more regulations/barriers, no? What is "too full" -- and by who's standard? Does New York City have too many immigrants? Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
What I meant was: the country today is nothing like it was in the beginning, so the immigration laws that worked back then probably are not going to work today. But those laws did not change because something dreadful happened or because we ran out of room, they changed because of xenophobia and fear. Note that today some people are admitted by a lottery system, so the only difference between that and letting in anyone who wants to work 5 years is ... ?
Oh, I don't know the particulars. So it will just be a feeling?
You said that you didn't see any moral justification for more regulation or barriers to immigration. It's a matter of being unabashedly committed to the basic founding principles of this country, that all people are created equal, entitled to freedom, liberty, justice, the pursuit of happiness, and the inalienable rights of ALL people ... ... that means that the people who just happen to live in the US are no more special than other people ... there is no citizenship test for people born here ...
I was offering being too full or having too little money as possible justifications for you to consider. They would justify it, no? I don't see why. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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