Is it time to consider compulsory vaccinations?

When we are talking about irrational fears, we are not talking about the facts. I completely agree that vaccines are many orders of magnitude safer than the infection itself. However, I know this because I have the education to understand how immunity works, have mingled with the scientific community, and know many people in the medical field. Not everyone has my knowledge or experience. Perhaps there is another option. Are you the survivor of a zombie apocalypse because you did not take the experimental government vaccine derived from alien DNA?

What would Jesus do about measles?In the early 1990's two fundy churches in Philadelphia went on a spree against vaccinations. A measles epidemic ran through the city. Instead of seeking medical help many of the parents turned to prayer. After a few kids died Public Health folks received court orders taking the sick kids into custody for medical treatment.Further, the Health folks received court orders to take the rest of the children from their fundy families, the court made them wards of the state, had them vaccinated then released back to their parents. The epidemic stopped.

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To prevent doctors from violating his church’s beliefs against vaccination, the pastor of the Faith Tabernacle Church asked the American Civil Liberties Union to represent him. It refused. There is certainly a free exercise of religion claim by the parents, said Deborah Levy, of the Philadelphia chapter of the A.C.L.U., but there is also a competing claim that parents don’t have the right to martyr their children.

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Of the 1400 people that contracted the disease a third of them were from the two churches. Of the 9 kids that died in the epidemic 6 were from those churches.Your personal beliefs do not matter. The free exercise of your religion does not matter. Not vaccinating your children is a clear and present danger to all the innocent people around you and actively kills.Is it time to consider compulsory vaccinations? Oh yes. And any that refuse should have their children forcefully taken from them and vaccinated not just for their children's safety but for the safety of all others around them who would die because of some parent's stupidity.Go practice your religion. Scream it from the pulpit and the town square. You have the right. But when the practice of your religion kills people you lose your right, you lose your children and you lose any claim of damage to any religious or parental privilege.

And the problem with that is?

Wow. Society has risks and threats of course. Would you really do better by yourself out there with no roads?

Your reasoning sounds exactly like that of marc9000 when he addresses AGW. I admit that my observation is not a counter argument. But you should only grab on to those secondary methods of evaluation when you cannot trust or understand the primary evidence.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

But you aren't participating.At least not at the same level as everyone else. You are taking a free ride when you have no excuse to do so.

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Wikipedia on Externalities:

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[A] positive externality would increase the utility of third parties at no cost to them. Since collective societal welfare is improved, but the providers have no way of monetizing the benefit, less of the good will be produced than would be optimal for society as a whole. Goods with positive externalities include education ..., public health initiatives ... and law enforcement. Positive externalities are often associated with the free rider problem.

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You might have read one of my earlier posts: The Importance of Herd Immunity. There are people who have valid reasons for not receiving certain vaccinations. They rely on herd immunity to protect them from those diseases against which they cannot be vaccinated.As you know from reading my other posts, herd immunity has been compromised in many areas on account of voluntary refusal to vaccinate. People unable to get the vaccine for valid reasons lose the protection of herd immunity. What's more, people who do get vaccinated can still lose out:

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"Measles Outbreak, Measles Vaccine: Top Questions Answered" from Huffington Post:

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Yes, people who have been vaccinated can get the measles, but there is only a small chance of this happening. About 3 percent of people who receive two doses of the measles vaccine will get measles if they come in contact with someone who has the virus, according to the CDC.

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The only way to fight this is to use a vaccine that is 100% effective or vaccinate to herd immunity levels. Since we don't have a vaccine that is 100% effective, the only option to protecting people who want the vaccine but cannot get it and people who get the vaccine but in whom it is ineffective is to vaccinate to herd immunity levels.The only option is to force folks like you to pay your debt to society, to make you pay for your ride.Jon

Well, you are a danger. You can pass off the blame to the disease if you want but the disease isn't subject to our laws, you are. And you have voluntarily chosen to be a danger by not being vaccinated. It's equivalent to wearing a dynamite vest; even if you have no intention of exploding it intentionally, you present a danger to the people around you.

Well perhaps for cars, but when it comes to bicycles it appears that some bicyclists prefer fixed gear brakeless bikes. These aren't legal in most cities and it's becoming more of a problem such that a Philadelphia councilman is proposing a $1000 fine for riding one on the streets. We had one guy killed last year near Orlando that couldn't stop when the ambulance in front of him made a right turn. The biker tried to take the turn too and ended up under the rear wheels.

Sure, if you heading out to a velodrome. Otherwise, you're just a stupid hipster.

Agreed, that and a future Darwin award winner and possible organ donor.Edited by kjsimons, : No reason given.

The long cold February nights are good for study and if you ever need some alone time just accuse your wife of not looking after her children's best interests.A few points have come up in our conversations that give me pause.The incidence and mortality rates of nearly all infectious diseases have been falling long before the introduction of vaccines. Good drinking water, personal hygiene and nutrition will impact the spread of any communicable disease as much if not more than any vaccine.I see a conflict of interest for health care providers when it comes to reporting adverse reactions. It is likely that they are under reported. From the 2nd report linked below.

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On 13 September 2010, 3 minutes after vaccination, the subject experienced crying and
sleepiness on the same day.
On 18 September 2010, 5 days after vaccination, the subject was found in bed with eyes
half-opened and a blue mouth. His skin was yellow/pale. He vomited pink, foaming milk. No
fever was observed (37 degrees C).
The boy was hospitalized, diarrhea aggravated and dehydration was diagnosed.
Blood test and spinal tap were performed.
The boy had several afebrile convulsions and a MRI showed severe damage of the brain.
No further treatment was given.
On 25 September 2010, 12 days after vaccination, the subject died from viral meningitis.
The regulatory authority considered the events were unlikely to be related with
vaccination with Infanrix hexa and Prevenar.

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I am not comfortable with the amount of confidence the medical profession has in itself. The immune system is certainly not fully understood and messing around with natural processes is a risky business. Natural immunity is very different from a vaccine induced response. It is clear that we do not know exactly what is happening. This quote is from a report dated 1981 or 13 yrs after the vaccine was introduced in the UK.

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Since the immunization programme began, there has been a dramatic and complicated shift in the age pattern of measles immunity in the population, such that some young age groups are now better protected, but some older age groups less well protected, than they were before the programme.

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It appears that the total number of individuals susceptible to measles has remained relatively constant, between 4 and 4.5 million, before and after the immunization programme.

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Measles in England and WalesII: The Impact of the Measles Vaccination Programme on the Distribution of Immunity in the Population | International Journal of Epidemiology | Oxford AcademicIntroducing grouped vaccinations is an economic decision. Does it really make sense to challenge a child's immune system to respond to 6 different afflictions at the same time? I have a problem with making decisions about my children's health based on what is best for the national economy.Mono cultures are generally a bad thing and so I think that there should always be some deviance just in principal.While I may choose to vaccinate against the measles should I then be forced to take a flu shot or one for hepatitis? Should I not be able to assess the threats that I face as an individual?I came across this 1200 page report from GlaxoSmithKline about Infanrix hexa. Interesting stuff. http://ddata.over-blog.com/3/27/09/71/2012-2013/confid.pdfI am really not sold on the social resposibility part of the argument. The idea of holding someone responsible for a disease that they might contract simply by walking through a space is the same as holding a women responsible for illiciting an unwanted response from a lustful observer.

The council for international organizations for medical sciences receives reports about adverse reactions to vaccines.From the GSK report mentioned in my previous post.

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The 2080 reports were received from 41 countries, mainly France (645 reports, 31%),
Italy (602 reports, 28.9%) and Germany (339 reports, 16.3%).

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Why should 76.2% of all reports come from 3 of 41 countries?

Good drinking water, personal hygiene and nutrition did not prevent me from getting measles and chicken pox. My children escaped measles because of vaccine, but the vaccine was a bit late to protect her from chicken pox. Likewise, it was vaccines that stopped polio in its tracks.Good drinking water and hygiene work with cholera, but not with measles.As I see it, the two most important advances in public health were vaccination and indoor plumbing. But you need both of those. Neither one alone does the job.

Well something else was going on. Here is my dubious source for these graphs. http://www.dissolvingillusions.com/...K-Deaths-1838-1978.pngEdited by ProtoTypical, : Here is my dubious source for these graphs