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Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 1613 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 181 of 1053 (751319)
03-02-2015 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by edge
03-01-2015 9:28 PM


Re: Curriculum focus
edge writes:

our experience here is any indication, the task is insurmountable. In 99.9% of cases, religious belief trumps scientific evidence and reasoned interpretation.

Being one of the 0.1%, I don't disagree with that at all. I happen to have several family members here who seem particular vulnerable to truth right now so I am hoping for a bit better odds in this specific case. The important thing to me is to be well prepared. When someone is vulnerable to truth and asks an idiot (or even a well meaning ignorant) an important question, a nonsensical answer can really turn them off.

JB


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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edge
Member (Idle past 946 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 182 of 1053 (751321)
03-02-2015 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by ThinAirDesigns
03-02-2015 10:11 AM


Re: Layers visible in salt mines
I was trying to figure out if the supercritical water method would also sort the dissolved content in the same way.

It would not. Just look at the flow directions. In the Hovland model the continuity is vertical and would result in a vertical zonation along structural pathways. In the evaporative model the continuity is lateral with zonation being in lateral directions controlled by stratigraphic processes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-02-2015 10:11 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-02-2015 11:32 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 946 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 183 of 1053 (751323)
03-02-2015 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by ThinAirDesigns
03-02-2015 10:52 AM


Re: Curriculum focus
Being one of the 0.1%, I don't disagree with that at all. I happen to have several family members here who seem particular vulnerable to truth right now so I am hoping for a bit better odds in this specific case. The important thing to me is to be well prepared. When someone is vulnerable to truth and asks an idiot (or even a well meaning ignorant) an important question, a nonsensical answer can really turn them off.

True enough. I'm afraid I get pretty cynical participating in discussions like we have around here sometimes.

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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 1613 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 184 of 1053 (751333)
03-02-2015 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by edge
03-02-2015 10:57 AM


Re: Layers visible in salt mines
edge writes:

It would not. Just look at the flow directions. In the Hovland model the continuity is vertical and would result in a vertical zonation along structural pathways. In the evaporative model the continuity is lateral with zonation being in lateral directions controlled by stratigraphic processes.

That was my uneducated thought as well but I wasn't sure - things that happen exposed to air on the surface would almost certainly look different.

(Ignorance alert!!) For instance, I would think one could tell by looking at the cooled lava around a volcano and determine to a great degree of certainty if it was an underwater eruption or not. In fact I would think there would be several ways to tell. I know that how things cool (slow or fast) changes how they look under a microscope. Also lava can flow for miles with little fall in the open air, where with rapid water cooling it would not be able to do that. Of course I know shit about volcanos, so that's mere supposition on my part based on other things I do know.

My point to that above paragraph is that a great percentage of the time nature give lie to the assertion that "you don't know, you weren't there.".

Thanks
JB


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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 1371 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 185 of 1053 (751338)
03-02-2015 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by ThinAirDesigns
03-01-2015 8:11 PM


Re: Curriculum focus
So I've been studying a lot and also learning more about the specific positions that my YEC family are holding and why. (remember, I've been gone and greatly out of touch with them for near 40 years.) I'm starting to get a handle on the sorts of things I need to focus on to both keep their attention and address their concerns and biases.
I've learned is that this younger crowd is somewhat open to the concept of an old earth and old universe – but old life is an issue for them. There are essentially willing to say that “Ok, the sun and stars were here for millions, billions, whatever. The earth could have also been here, but as a lifeless blank.” This is different from where everyone was when I left which was hard line “It all arrived 6,000 years ago.” Now, it's more like “We'll give you that other stuff, but LIFE started no more than 6,000 (or so) years ago, it was created in 6 literal days and the Noahic flood definitely covered all and killed everything not on the ark around 4,000 years ago.” They have also made a little 'progress' on the “everything was created just as it is seen now” position. As one of them told me a couple days ago … “I believe in adaptation, but not evolution.” (hmmmmm). They did make it clear to me that every bit of life, down to the most basic forms were created all in the 6 days.

One thing they are big on is that there was definitely no death before 'the fall' of Adam and Eve. Any fossil found was placed after the fall. Combine this belief with them accepting the possibility of an old universe and a barren 'blank' earth before creation and you have a situation where it's not productive for me to focus on anything in the realm of astronomy (unless it's used to demonstrate the constants). It also won't pay to be trying to date layers below where the lowest fossil life is found.

So, my task is to create presentations that can as simply and reliably as possible show two things:
1: the evidence is clear that the layers at and above the lowest fossil bearing layers (precambrian?) could not be young.
2: the evidence shows that a Noahic flood didn't happen.

That's all.

In another later post I'll get into the sorts of things I'm thinking of focusing on and get suggestions.

Thanks
JB


Radiocarbon will get you back about 45,000 years (the lake varve sequence), which should be enough to shake the insistence on 6,000 years. You could perhaps discuss the early inhabitants of N. America, which I believe go back about 20,000 years. (Radiocarbon dating of bone is tricky, with a number of pitfalls, but Erv Taylor is one of the world experts on it.)

If you want to take them back further, you might want to discuss Ar-Ar dating and the death of the dinosaurs about 30 million years ago. Ar-Ar dating is somewhat complex and will be difficult to explain (it is based on K-Ar dating, which is simple but can give misleading results; K-Ar has been strongly attacked by YECs.). The death of the dinosaurs is an interesting story that should grab their interest. Walter Alvarez wrote a nice popular-level account of this titled "T. Rex and the Crater of Doom".


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-01-2015 8:11 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-02-2015 4:52 PM kbertsche has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 186 of 1053 (751341)
03-02-2015 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by ThinAirDesigns
03-02-2015 11:32 AM


Lava
(Ignorance alert!!) For instance, I would think one could tell by looking at the cooled lava around a volcano and determine to a great degree of certainty if it was an underwater eruption or not. In fact I would think there would be several ways to tell.

You can, I mention it in the book. Underwater, basalt forms "pillow basalt". There are some good videos on YouTube of this happening. Subaerially, you get aa or pahoehoe.

I know that how things cool (slow or fast) changes how they look under a microscope.

Not so good a test. If basalt formed underground, then it would be coarse-grained and so wouldn't technically be basalt at all, but gabbro. In water and in air, it'll be basalt. I don't know if the difference in cooling rates is so different as to make underwater basalt consistently more fine-grained, so that we could use that as a test --- if anyone knows that that's the case, please set me right. But as I said above, to detect whether it was subaerial or underwater we can look at its macroscopic structure. So long as the top surface of the basalt hasn't been eroded, the difference will be visible to the naked eye.

(If the upper surface of the basalt has been eroded so far as to remove the distinctive surface features, then I guess we've got a great old-Earth argument right there, however the basalt was deposited!)

Also lava can flow for miles with little fall in the open air, where with rapid water cooling it would not be able to do that.

If this is true (I'd have to look it up) it would nonetheless be the case that sea-floor spreading could and indeed should spread a layer of underwater-formed basalt literally all the way across the floor of an ocean. So mere area covered can't be a criterion.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


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Stile
Member
Posts: 4071
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 187 of 1053 (751344)
03-02-2015 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ThinAirDesigns
02-13-2015 8:31 AM


Hello ThinAirDesigns!

If you're passionate about focusing on the science side of things, please just ignore this post.

I was just thinking, though, that since you seem to be doing some of your education in person... well, people are people and ask all sorts of questions. I would be surprised if you haven't received any questions/ideas along the lines of morality and spirituality basically being defunct without The Church.

Just wanted to point out that this (of course) is also absolutely false and there's also lots of information on that side of things around here too. If interested, feel free to check out the following threads:

Human Spirit
Morals without God or Darwin, just Empathy
Why It Is Right To Do Good To Others
The Meaning of Life for Atheists
Love is Greater than God
Morality without god
Are Atheists "Philosophically Limited"....?
Morality! Thorn in Darwin's side or not?

Have fun!


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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 188 of 1053 (751345)
03-02-2015 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by edge
03-01-2015 11:08 PM


Re: Layers visible in salt mines
As you can see these beds are almost pure salt and the muds or clays are simply contamination.

To make it clear, I didn't mean to imply that the bands in the photo would be pure mud. Some of them just might be, but they are much more likely muddy salt, or possibly salty mud.


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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 189 of 1053 (751349)
03-02-2015 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by ThinAirDesigns
03-02-2015 11:32 AM


Re: Layers visible in salt mines
I know that how things cool (slow or fast) changes how they look under a microscope. Also lava can flow for miles with little fall in the open air, where with rapid water cooling it would not be able to do that.

Afterthought: this can't even be the case even with underwater volcanism without sea-floor spreading. Otherwise incipient volcanic islands would basically be shaped like hollow pillars, wouldn't they?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-02-2015 11:32 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied

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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 1613 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 190 of 1053 (751350)
03-02-2015 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Stile
03-02-2015 12:00 PM


Stile writes:

I would be surprised if you haven't received any questions/ideas along the lines of morality and spirituality basically being defunct without The Church.

Oh, that topic comes up quite often and in fact is literally one of the BIG reasons that I have any credibility at all with them. I know that sounds opposite of what you would expect, but these kids have been told day in and day out how evil and selfish and hurtful and dangerous non-believers are. Along comes me who to them seems unusually kind and thoughtful and understanding and thus the entire model they were raised with seems in doubt to them.

If you're passionate about focusing on the science side of things, please just ignore this post.

I actually think this side is dealt with quite well by science. It's rather easy to show through statistics that lack of belief in god and things like crime for instance don't go hand in hand. I was able to show through recent US prison data for instance, that atheists were far less likely to be convicted and imprisoned than members of their own SDA denomination.

Excellent post and definitely something to keep in mind.

Thanks
JB


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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 1613 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 191 of 1053 (751352)
03-02-2015 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Dr Adequate
03-02-2015 12:17 PM


Re: Layers visible in salt mines
Dr Adequate writes:

Afterthought: this can't even be the case even with underwater volcanism without sea-floor spreading. Otherwise incipient volcanic islands would basically be shaped like hollow pillars, wouldn't they?

Well, not so much pillars, but steep cone shape (underwater) vs shallow cone shape (open air).

That was purely a guess and I accept that there are a TON of things I haven't considered in that 2 second hypothesis.

JB


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edge
Member (Idle past 946 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 192 of 1053 (751354)
03-02-2015 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Dr Adequate
03-02-2015 12:02 PM


Re: Layers visible in salt mines
To make it clear, I didn't mean to imply that the bands in the photo would be pure mud. Some of them just might be, but they are much more likely muddy salt, or possibly salty mud.

Well, they are almost all impure to some degree. However, the part that is mined is as pure as possible. The samples I've dealt with are light grayish brown with very large crystals up to several mm in dimension. That size would be very difficult if there were a lot of impurities such as clays, etc. If you look at the salt flats in Utah, the salt is almost pure halite, so they look almost pure white, even from space. Go to the Morton Salt website if you want to see some pictures of those facilities. The impurities there are mostly wind-blown silt and pollen, etc. But if it goes on the table, it's got to be clean.

If you look at the underground picture on earlier pages, I'm pretty sure that the roof (or 'back') is more of a siltstone, otherwise it wouldn't have the tensile strength to stand up. Pure salt is quite weak, especially in the coarser grained variety and it will crumble, or it will flow if confined.

A lot of these features of salt are what make it so economically attractive. If you have a good salt mine in the northern states, just line up the trucks and start counting your money.


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edge
Member (Idle past 946 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 193 of 1053 (751356)
03-02-2015 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by ThinAirDesigns
03-02-2015 11:32 AM


Re: Layers visible in salt mines
That was my uneducated thought as well but I wasn't sure - things that happen exposed to air on the surface would almost certainly look different.

(Ignorance alert!!) For instance, I would think one could tell by looking at the cooled lava around a volcano and determine to a great degree of certainty if it was an underwater eruption or not. In fact I would think there would be several ways to tell. I know that how things cool (slow or fast) changes how they look under a microscope. Also lava can flow for miles with little fall in the open air, where with rapid water cooling it would not be able to do that. Of course I know shit about volcanos, so that's mere supposition on my part based on other things I do know.


It is absolutely possible, and usually easy, to tell subaqueous volcanic deposits from subaerial deposits. There are all kinds of variations depending on the type of volcanic eruption, its composition and the depositional environment.

ETA: Oh, yeah, and whatever happened afterward.

Edited by edge, : No reason given.


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edge
Member (Idle past 946 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 194 of 1053 (751360)
03-02-2015 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Dr Adequate
03-02-2015 11:51 AM


Re: Lava
In water and in air, it'll be basalt. I don't know if the difference in cooling rates is so different as to make underwater basalt consistently more fine-grained, so that we could use that as a test --- if anyone knows that that's the case, please set me right.

It's hard to get finer-grained that a true 'trap' rock. However, the very presence of water along with rapid cooling will change the texture completely. Most subaqueous volcanics will be fragmental (broken up), and often altered (heat plus water plus dissolved materials). Look up the term 'hyaloclastite' sometime.

The exception to this is in the case of some pillow basalts, but again, they have macro-textures that are immediately recognized by virtually all geologists. They are also usually altered to a sodic (remember the salt questions?) type.

Again, the reality is complex. For instance, what happens when a magma encounters groundwater? We could go on and on.


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Stile
Member
Posts: 4071
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 195 of 1053 (751361)
03-02-2015 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by ThinAirDesigns
03-02-2015 12:17 PM


ThinAirDesigns writes:

Oh, that topic comes up quite often and in fact is literally one of the BIG reasons that I have any credibility at all with them.

Ah... "by their fruits, ye shall know them..." One of my favourite Bible ideas. And something I believe in myself, as well.

I know that sounds opposite of what you would expect, but these kids have been told day in and day out how evil and selfish and hurtful and dangerous non-believers are.

Actually, that sounds exactly like I would expect, we see it a lot around here..

Along comes me who to them seems unusually kind and thoughtful and understanding and thus the entire model they were raised with seems in doubt to them.

Fantastic!


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