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Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
edge
Member (Idle past 1791 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 241 of 1053 (751848)
03-06-2015 2:28 PM


After a little search, I found this map:
In this reference:
The Chicxulub multi-ring impact crater, Yucatan carbonate platform, Gulf of Mexico
Some of the other figures in the article are important as well, showing, for instance the differences between proximal and distal deposits. Note also that they rely not only on iridium but shocked quartz, magnetics and some other geochemical variability in ferrous metals.
quote:
"Characteristics of K/Pg boundary sections world—wide are also important in studies of the climatic and environmental perturbations generated by the impact and in evaluating effects in the biosphere. Initial studies were carried out in distal sections from Europe (lvarez et al., 1980), and only later analyses of sections in proximal sites were completed. Studies demonstrated the global distribution of the ejecta layer, with K/Pg boundary sections in all continental areas and ocean basins (Figures 19 and 20). Marine and continental deposits were characterized by the iridium anomaly, and shock minerals. Studies in the Gulf of Mexico—Caribbean Sea areas showed that sections were more complex and thicker as compared with distal sites, with presence of high—energy sedimentary deposits and fireball layer, and also indicating that iridium enrichment patterns varied with relative location to impact site (Bourgeois et al., 1988; Smit et al., 1992; lvarez et al., 1992; Urrutia—Fucugauchi, 1993). The K/Pg boundary layer in distal and proximal sections is characterized by a magnetic anomaly, with increased magnetic susceptibility and remanent magnetization (Figure 21) (Villasante et al., 2007)."

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1791 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 242 of 1053 (751850)
03-06-2015 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Faith
03-06-2015 2:25 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
The thing is, the existence of a worldwide deposition of iridium can be explained in terms of the Flood of Noah too, as evidence of a meteor hit during the Flood, dispersing its iridium along with all the sediments the Flood deposited. I've mentioned it many times here and HERE's one of those posts.
If you presuppose a biblical flood, yes. However, there is no evidence for such a flood event.
Besides, you are still using an impact to explain the iridium, not a flood per se. But yes, there could be other things going on at the time. There were probably volcanoes erupting too, but so what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Faith, posted 03-06-2015 2:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 03-06-2015 2:35 PM edge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1529 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 243 of 1053 (751851)
03-06-2015 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by edge
03-06-2015 2:32 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
The "so what?" is that as long as there is a plausible explanation for a given phenomenon's being caused by the Flood, you can't use it as an argument against YEC belief in the Flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by edge, posted 03-06-2015 2:32 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by edge, posted 03-06-2015 2:43 PM Faith has replied
 Message 248 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-06-2015 3:09 PM Faith has replied
 Message 253 by Taq, posted 03-06-2015 4:39 PM Faith has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1791 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 244 of 1053 (751853)
03-06-2015 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
03-06-2015 2:35 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
The "so what?" is that as long as there is a plausible explanation for a given phenomenon's being caused by the Flood, you can't use it as an argument against YEC belief in the Flood.
Ummm, ... we aren't doing that.
Impacts can happen whether there was a flood or not. We were discussing the global occurrence of an iridium layer supporting the interpretation of a global event caused by an extraterrestrial origin. Your flood has nothing to do with this discussion.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 03-06-2015 2:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 03-06-2015 2:51 PM edge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1529 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 245 of 1053 (751854)
03-06-2015 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by edge
03-06-2015 2:43 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
I think it does for ThinAir. His whole point is to find arguments against YEC.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by edge, posted 03-06-2015 2:43 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by edge, posted 03-06-2015 2:59 PM Faith has replied
 Message 261 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-06-2015 5:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1791 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 246 of 1053 (751856)
03-06-2015 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Faith
03-06-2015 2:51 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
I think it does for ThinAir. His whole point is to find arguments against YEC.
A very specific question was asked. I was attempting to answer. There was nothing in the question regarding the validity or disproof of a flood.
When the flood comes up, your statement will be relevant... maybe.
Or maybe you could complain that the iridium layer does not disprove the existence Cambrian mammals, also.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 03-06-2015 2:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Faith, posted 03-06-2015 3:07 PM edge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1529 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 247 of 1053 (751858)
03-06-2015 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by edge
03-06-2015 2:59 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
If the Flood explains it all, there is no such thing as "Cambrian" animals for iridium to prove or disprove. They're all antediluvian creatures from bottom to top of the geo column.
But I can leave you to your argument with ThinAir if you like. Just wanted him to know that establishing how widespread the iridium is won't give him all that much of a case against YEC so he might as well not waste his time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by edge, posted 03-06-2015 2:59 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by edge, posted 03-06-2015 4:01 PM Faith has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 248 of 1053 (751860)
03-06-2015 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
03-06-2015 2:35 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
The "so what?" is that as long as there is a plausible explanation for a given phenomenon's being caused by the Flood, you can't use it as an argument against YEC belief in the Flood.
Can you imagine any phenomenon that you could not find a plausible explanation for by being caused by the Flood?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 03-06-2015 2:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Faith, posted 03-06-2015 3:10 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1529 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 249 of 1053 (751861)
03-06-2015 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by New Cat's Eye
03-06-2015 3:09 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
I do my best with whatever gets thrown at me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-06-2015 3:09 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-06-2015 3:31 PM Faith has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 250 of 1053 (751866)
03-06-2015 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Faith
03-06-2015 3:10 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
I do my best with whatever gets thrown at me.
So you can't imagine any at all that you couldn't explain with the Flood?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Faith, posted 03-06-2015 3:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 03-06-2015 5:01 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1791 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 251 of 1053 (751869)
03-06-2015 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Faith
03-06-2015 3:07 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
If the Flood explains it all, there is no such thing as "Cambrian" animals for iridium to prove or disprove. They're all antediluvian creatures from bottom to top of the geo column.
Are you saying that the flood explains the iridium layer?
If so, then you need to explain your explanation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Faith, posted 03-06-2015 3:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2216 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(2)
Message 252 of 1053 (751871)
03-06-2015 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by ThinAirDesigns
03-06-2015 12:50 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
In my continued study of geology, I came across something really freaking cool (maybe). It was the discovery by Luis and Walter Alverez of the iridium rich clay layer at the Cretaceous—Paleogene boundary. I have a question that I'm trying to answer regarding the acceptance or debate about this 'iridium anomaly".
I see much active/historical debate about the proposed causes of this anomaly. I'm not so interested (for current purposes) in the cause so much as whether it's accepted and demonstrable that it exists as a world wide layer. If you understand the theology that I'm up against (all life killed all at once), having such an identifiable marker laid down world wide, smack in the middle of all this death is a nice arrow in the evidence quiver.
I'm wondering how broad the confirmation is of this layer. Is it a solid accepted fact of geology? I reading the Wiki page for Luis Alverez, I saw this statement: Not Found
quote:
Publication of the 1980 paper brought criticism from the geological community, and an often acrimonious scientific debate ensued.
Was/is that debate centered around cause of the layer or the existence of the layer? I don't want to put this arrow in my quiver without confirming it's validity and understanding any controversy. It would seem to me that with as many holes as we drill in the earths crust, confirmation of this layer could be pretty broad if it exists.
I have been unable to find any reference to this yet in the excellent Wiki-book on geology provided by Dr Adequate, but I'm not even close to being all the way through that reference and I can't seem to find a way to search the contents of that book electronically (without searching the entire site).
Any suggestions appreciated.
Thanks
JB
I'll make some comments on this very interesting discovery, but you should first be aware that I am very biased. Luie was one of my mentors, and when in grad school I attended talks at his home every Monday evening.
Walter describes the history of the discovery pretty well in his his book.. Walter (a geologist) was studying the K-T boundary and trying to resolve a debate within the geological community: was this dark layer at the K-T boundary laid down very quickly, or at the same slow rate as the other rock on either side of it? Walter presented the question to his Dad, Luie (a Nobel laureate physicist). Luie suggested that perhaps cosmic dust influx could be used as a "clock" to measure the deposition rate. As he ran through the possibilities, he settled on the Pt-group elements, as they are iron-soluble and are very rare in earth's crust (they were concentrated in the core as the earth cooled). The element iridium (Ir) seemed to Luie to be the best of the Pt-group elements to use as a clock. So they did the measurements, expecting to see that the Ir concentration in the dark layer at the K-T boundary was either at the same level as the neighboring rock (the same deposition rate) or at a lower level (a faster deposition rate). What they found surprised them: the level of Ir in the dark layer was ~1000 times higher than in the surrounding rock! Based on their earlier hypothesis, this would mean that the layer was laid down ~1000 times slower than the surrounding rock, which was geologically ridiculous. After double-checking the measurements, Luie and Walter tried to come up with an explanation for this unexpected excess of Ir.
They considered volcanism, but the amount of Ir was too big to account for with volcanos. The only explanation that worked to provide this much Ir was an asteroid impact, and the asteroid would have to be fairly large. As Luie and Walter worked through the results of such an impact, they found lots of potential consequences that could be experimentally checked. Besides the excess of Ir itself, such an impact should have created shocked quartz and microtectites. Plus, it should have left a large impact crater.
(They concluded that this large asteroid impact would have thrown enough dust into the atmosphere to darken the sky for a year or more, dramatically cooling the climate and causing many plants to die, which would then lead to the extinction of other species, such as the dinosaurs. This research led directly to the idea that a large exchange of nuclear weapons could similarly lead to a "nuclear winter" which might possibly kill off all of mankind.)
Throughout the 1980s, Luie and Walter found Ir anomalies at the K-T boundary worldwide (on nearly every continent, if I remember right). They found worldwide evidence of microtectites and shocked quartz. Walter eventually found the impact crater site off of the Yucatan, and found evidence of violent wave action in the Gulf of Mexico.
Much of the controversy over Luie's theory in the 1980's was due to scientific "turf wars." To the geologists, Luie (a physicist) was an outsider. The way that he thought and analyzed data was different, and his views were suspect. Some of the last critics of the theory were in the geology and anthropology groups at U.C. Berkeley, the same institution where Luie was professor of physics.
I think the worldwide evidence for the asteroid impact (excess Ir, microtectites, shocked quartz) is extremely solid, beyond any serious question. But again, I am biased; Luie mentored me during the 1980's, when he and Walter were making these discoveries. I was hearing about the progress of his theory real-time, from the inside.
You should be able to find papers by Walter or Luis Alvarez which support the worldwide nature of the Ir anomaly. For a slightly different perspective from Walter's, check Luie's autobiography. There may also be some useful information in Peter trower's biography of Luie. You might also check for authors Frank Asaro and Helen Michaels, the two chemists who did most of the measurements for Luie.
Here are a few papers:
Page not found
Page not found
Page not found
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
Edited by kbertsche, : Added links.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-06-2015 12:50 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 253 of 1053 (751872)
03-06-2015 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
03-06-2015 2:35 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
The "so what?" is that as long as there is a plausible explanation for a given phenomenon's being caused by the Flood, you can't use it as an argument against YEC belief in the Flood.
Then what type of geologic formation could the Flood not produce?
Are you saying that the Flood could produce any geologic formation we can dream up?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 03-06-2015 2:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 03-06-2015 5:02 PM Taq has replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2458 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 254 of 1053 (751873)
03-06-2015 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Faith
03-06-2015 2:25 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
faith writes:
The thing is, the existence of a worldwide deposition of iridium can be explained in terms of the Flood of Noah too, as evidence of a meteor hit during the Flood, dispersing its iridium along with all the sediments the Flood deposited.
I did read the only link that worked in your post. Thanks.
This is the problem I have with such general theories faith -- Noahic flood proponents seem to want to have it both ways with their flood. Let me explain:
For one theory to work (mountains formed lets say) the flood must necessarily have been extremely violent so they say the flood was exceedingly violent. In one 'inspired' account, is was so violent that even Satan himself feared for his own existence (that's from EG White, SDA prophetess.) This ( it's claimed) accounts for all the powerful movements of the continents, etc.
For their next theory to work, (say the iridium layer, or their version of hydraulic sorting), it couldn't be chaotic, it must be calm - miraculously calm in fact. So calm that the iridium laden dust/ash/whatever can settle to the bottom of the flood waters in an extremely distinct world-wide layer and then be covered by another extremely distinct layer without getting all mixed up again. It can't go back and forth (as you 'wave' propose in the post you linked) between calm and violent and fit the evidence for two reasons (far more than two actually, but here's two):
A: not enough time in the given ~year to settle out the layers
B: even if you DO have time to settle out a layer, any significant motion will displace and suspend the fresh layer once again. Just wade into any farm pond that has been sitting calm all year and you immediately stir up the soft silt layer and displace/suspend the particles in the water. Even a hard rain or strong wind rippling the surface heavily is enough to cause the water to become silty again. Watch what happens when they release extra water from a dam -- the muddy water is not from rain washing particles in (there's no rain after all), but from silt being stirred up by the current.
There are FAR more problems with the Noahic flood theory than just what I mentioned there, but that's just the one that pops into my head when I think of this layer.
Evidence doesn't allow folk to have their own fantasy way (only faith does that). Theories have to interlace with the evidence across the board and while I see plenty of ad hoc explanations about individual issues relating to YEC, I have yet to see an explanation that isn't loudly contradicted by the evidence elsewhere.
Since this thread is about science curriculum, I'll ask a direct question: Can you propose a science experiment that demonstrates your theory that layers can be formed that way? I certainly can propose a simple experiment (a version of the 'mason jar') which shows how your theory is flawed.
Since I'm all for hands on science, let's put together two simple test for the kids and let them watch what happens to both. Shall we?
JB
Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Faith, posted 03-06-2015 2:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by jar, posted 03-06-2015 4:55 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 03-06-2015 5:07 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34060
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 255 of 1053 (751874)
03-06-2015 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by ThinAirDesigns
03-06-2015 4:40 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
Perhaps you can get Faith to present the method and process in her imagined flood that laid down the iridium layer and also the white cliffs of Dover which she has also claimed as the result of the flood.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-06-2015 4:40 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
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