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Author | Topic: Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1704 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Shall I be more precise then for the hairsplitting nitpickers? The WHOLE SCOPE of what I can envision is irrelevant. That was the question I was answering. The specific things that I CAN envision is something else.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1704 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Mountains.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1665 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Shall I be more precise then for the hairsplitting nitpickers? The WHOLE SCOPE of what I can envision is irrelevant. That was the question I was answering. The specific things that I CAN envision is something else. To be even more nit-picky, Faith, the thread is about science you can demonstrate, experiments you can do, facts ... and not what can be imagined, fantasized, envisaged, or hypothesized. Do you have ONE experiment you can suggest? What about your sandbox experiments? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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ThinAirDesigns Member (Idle past 2633 days) Posts: 564 Joined: |
OK, I see you edited your post to be a bit more clear as to your presented arguments (thanks) so I'll briefly address the edits.
faith writes: Settling out of standing water isn't the only way layers could form. Layers form in the deltas of rivers. A: Is it a global flood, or the river Noah we're talking about here? B: And I suspect with no formal geology training that it's damn straight easy to tell sediments laid down by currents vs those settled out of standing water. I could even predict numerous ways it would be done, but whose counting?
Water does sort sediments. Running water. Of course is does -- that's been the foundation of panning, sluicing and dredge mining for centuries. To apply that to the flood though you can't just say it and expect it to mean anything -- you must propose a mechanism by which water being sloshed about in a giant tub can produce what we see. I'm listening. JB
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1704 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
This stuff is all speculative because it is about the past. They speculate about the iridium layer, I speculate about the iridium layer. I mentioned some observations I'm aware of about water deposition of sediments, which is already off the topic of iridium. I'm not interested in getting deeper into this right now.
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16113 Joined: |
This stuff is all speculative because it is about the past. I thought we'd done this. Using scientific methods is to a certain extent "speculative" whether we use it about the past, present, or future. But it's all we've got. Using science to find out things about the past that you personally don't like isn't any different.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1704 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
If you agree that water sorts sediments, that's all I was saying. Some argue that the Flood would only have mixed things up, but water sorts sediments in many ways. Settling out, wave deposition of beach sand, Walther's Law deposition as sea water rises and falls, all suggest ways it must have happened in the Flood.
"Sloshed about in a tub" is hardly a model of the Flood. Rain saturating the land mass, causing mudslides probably the first effect, water rushing down in streams and rivers from higher to lower land, carrying massive amounts of sediments that then mix with the rising sea water. Sea water sorts into layers anyway, and currents. However it sorts beach sand it would sort the sediments now mixing into it, and the living things that it picked up with the sediments. When the water covers everything it may still have a lot of wave action but should become relatively placid after a while. When the deposition of sediments occurs is a question, perhaps during different stages of the rising and standing and falling. Walther's Law shows a definite pattern of deposition that should be explored. Anyway, no "sloshing" in my scenario. And just for your information, I did not learn anything about creationism from church as a child, I gave up on religion for thirty years from age 15 on, became born again in my mid forties, and a few years later read some of the creationists but a lot of my thinking is my own variations on their ideas. I BECAME a YEC from my own reading and study, I wasn't subjected to it. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1704 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes we've done it to death and I never agreed with you that science that interprets the past has the same explanatory power as science has that can be replicated in the present over and over and over.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1665 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Water does sort sediments. Running water. Of course is does -- that's been the foundation of panning, sluicing and dredge mining for centuries. To apply that to the flood though you can't just say it and expect it to mean anything -- you must propose a mechanism by which water being sloshed about in a giant tub can produce what we see. I'm listening. Indeed. You can have stochastic events (storms, bursting dams) and you can have seasonal events (spring runoff). Rhythmites are periodic sedimentation systems, while varves are generally annual events. One of the problems for creationists are factual evidence of many layers of alternating materials, not just by particle size but also by content. Particle size is one thing that affects rhythmite and varve formation, and varves can have different layers with different size particles, some that settle faster than others. The problem is that the conditions for fine layers are different from the conditions for coarse layers, so if there are many alternating layers that then there must be alternating conditions.
Settling Velocity and Suspension Velocity(1)
quote: 13.6 Colloids(2)
quote: Particle Size Analysis Lab(3)
quote: Basically, if the water is moving faster than the settling rate then the particles don't settle.
Soil Colloids(4)
quote: If we use 0.002 mm (0.0002 cm) for clay in the above formula we get = 1.62 cm/hr = 38.8 cm/day = 15.3 in/day. As you can see the theoretical settling velocity of clay according to Stoke's Law would be very, very slowly. In a 100 ft deep lake a new clay particle deposited at the surface would theoretically take ~80 days to reach the bottom. Actual times are longer due to the interaction of charged clay particles with water, and because the clay particles are not spherical, but it would take days if not weeks or months for new clay from rainstorms to settle to the bottom. This is especially true in the center of the lake as the new inflow must take time to mix with the lake water and get dispersed sufficiently to reach the center area. This means that a lake can act as a buffer to average out all the clay sediment being introduced to the lake by the inflow: even large variations in inflow will have little effect on the amount of clay settling to the bottom at the center of the lake. This means that clay layers in varves are strong indicators of extended periods of undisturbed settling in the water column, and that is only half of the varve formation process -- the other half is the deposit of shells ("tests") from diatoms (algae) and foraminifera (amoeboid protists). That means bloom and die of these organisms in-between the calm settling periods for the fine sediments. There are over 30,000 such varves in Lake Suigetsu, Japan of clay alternating with diatom tests ... Enjoy. References
Edited by RAZD, : clrtyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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ThinAirDesigns Member (Idle past 2633 days) Posts: 564 Joined: |
Faith writes: There's no reason to expect such disturbances after the rain stopped. Then there's no reason whatsoever to expect that the flood could have placed the bazillion cubic miles of earth in the many layers above the iridium anomaly and then carved features in them (to say nothing of the fossils in those layers). You see, this is a perfect display of the thought (not) put into transparent YEC crap: "Oh, I'll solve the problem of the water dispersing the newly placed iridium bearing layer by having everything go calm." Yeah, AND THEN WHAT??? How does the rest of the work that the flood supposedly accomplished get done? This is why the YEC crowd is losing ground and will continue to lose ground. Y'all are satisfied with attempting to sell a selection of individual, contradictory, ad hoc explanations that anyone willing to give them a 30 second sniff test chokes on the stench. JB
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ThinAirDesigns Member (Idle past 2633 days) Posts: 564 Joined: |
Faith writes: This stuff is all speculative because it is about the past. There is nothing speculative about my interest in the iridium layer. As I mentioned in my initial post on the question, I'm not that interested (for my current purpose) in how it actually formed, I want to know if it EXISTS ... TODAY. That's hardly a speculative matter. Why am I interested in it's existence? Because as you've perfectly highlighted with your blather, it demonstrates *again* the lack of scientific rigor displayed by the supporters of the Noahic flood.
They speculate about the iridium layer, I speculate about the iridium layer. Yeah, this is a play on the old "I have a theory, you have a theory. We're tied" YEC argument. Well, in scientific terms you don't even yet have a hypothesis so turn the pompous knob down until you have something approaching the cohesive nature of the knowledge demonstrated by geologists. Let me know when your speculation can withstand 10 seconds of scrutiny because so far it's coming up about 9 seconds short. Suggest an experiment - a specific one. Use the oft published scientific method as your guide to setting it up please. JB
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1704 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
So the layer of iridium was deposited during the receding of the water.
Nobody claims the Flood has been adequately understood, we're just trying to put together the possibilities. Nothing is hard and fast, we're working on it. What are you so angry about? The science that is used to debunk the Flood is all speculation too, because it has to be because it's about the past which can't be replicated.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1704 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
So now you know the iridium layer does exist. Happy?
I said nothing about being "tied," the point is that science about one time events in the past can't be definitively proved as the hard sciences often can be. That means we're left with speculative methods. Since it is about the past, coming up with an experiment is an unfair request. There are experiments with water behavior and that sort of thing that can be used in the speculations I suppose, but you are still left with speculation about how they apply to one-time past events, but experiment is exactly what CAN'T be done with the sciences of the unreplicable past as they are done in the hard sciences etc. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ThinAirDesigns Member (Idle past 2633 days) Posts: 564 Joined: |
Faith writes: If you agree that water sorts sediments, that's all I was saying. No, that's not all you were saying. You're saying that the waters of the flood *specifically* are responsible for the layers and I'm responding "provide an experiment that supports your assertion and we'll test it side by side with others and let the kids decide."
"Sloshed about in a tub" is hardly a model of the Flood. Nonsense -- it's an extremely good model considering the flood waters would have to have been miles freaking deep to be biblically correct. By YEC description, it's one giant worldwide mass of churning water able to do massive damage to the face of the earth.
Anyway, no "sloshing" in my scenario. I'm uninterested in your own pet speculations. Those are a dime a dozen.
When the water covers everything it may still have a lot of wave action but should become relatively placid after a while. Yeah, because that's what large bodies of water exposed to wind and weather do on their own ... become relatively placid. And the bigger and more exposed they are the more relatively placid they get. OMG you're a hoot. Here's the deal Faith -- unless you are going to suggest direct science experiments, observations and knowledge (not speculation) that can be repeated in my curriculum, there's no point in your participation here. I'm not on this thread to change participants minds. I'm here to collect verifiable ideas and experiments and knowledge that can be incorporated in a way that will allow people who aren't here to decide for themselves from the evidence, not speculation. JB
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1704 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There is no way I know of to come up with an experiment to demonstrate how the layers formed miles thick across whole continents on a spherical globe. If I come up with one or find one described on a creationist site or somewhere I'll let you know.
As for participating on this thread, I'm not interested in participating on this thread, I'd like to get off it. My interest is wholly limited to the remark I made that the iridium layer can be explained in relation to the Flood. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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