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Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 331 of 1053 (751961)
03-07-2015 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by ThinAirDesigns
03-07-2015 9:05 AM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
The rim of the Grand Canyon is only the Permian, the KT boundary is higher. The question is whether the iridium shows up in the Grand Staircase to the north of the Grand Canyon, whose layers climb from the Permian to the Holocene.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-07-2015 9:05 AM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1815 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 332 of 1053 (751962)
03-07-2015 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by ThinAirDesigns
03-07-2015 9:05 AM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
Not being familiar with the geology of the Grand Canyon, does this layer appear? My guess would be "no", but that's only because I hear ages of the GC being much much older than this layer. Would that mean that the layer had been eroded away before (during?) canyon formation?
Good question. It has been eroded away, but not during canyon formation. It was actualy eroded at an earlier time when the course of the Colorado River was at a lower elevation, meandering across a low coastal plain.
I'm not sure if the iridium layer has been documented in this area. I will do some research; but because erosion occurs not only in the present, if the layer was deposited on land it could have been immediately eroded just as the MSH ash is gone from most continental areas today. In other words, it's as if it never were deposited.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-07-2015 9:05 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by jar, posted 03-07-2015 9:59 AM edge has not replied
 Message 336 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-07-2015 10:03 AM edge has replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


(1)
Message 333 of 1053 (751964)
03-07-2015 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by kbertsche
03-06-2015 4:33 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
kbertsche writes:
I'll make some comments on this very interesting discovery, but you should first be aware that I am very biased. Luie was one of my mentors, and when in grad school I attended talks at his home every Monday evening.
What a FUN story. One the most interesting aspects (to me) is the possibility that this discovery may have lead to the knowledge that kept some damn finger of the big red nuclear button. Who would have thought that the study of geology might have saved mankind (from themselves).
I will check out those links you provided. I real a lot and it's very little fiction, mostly science and biographies. Those sound very interesting.
JB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by kbertsche, posted 03-06-2015 4:33 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by kbertsche, posted 03-07-2015 10:51 AM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34126
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 334 of 1053 (751965)
03-07-2015 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 332 by edge
03-07-2015 9:19 AM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
There are several places in the US where the K/T boundary layer is exposed but none in the Grand Canyon that I am aware of. The closest to me is up in Big Bend, Tx but there are also spots along the Brazos River here in Texas. Other places I'm aware of are the Hell Canyon formation and in the Raton Basin.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by edge, posted 03-07-2015 9:19 AM edge has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 335 of 1053 (751966)
03-07-2015 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by edge
03-06-2015 9:12 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
You keep saying things like this, but you never say why it is so.
The answer ought to be pretty obvious.
No discovery can be inconsistent with the Flood, because Flood believers will just invent properties for massive amounts of water that can reproduce any phenomenon. Because the Flood happened in the past, and you weren't there, then whatever they say is beyond challenge.
Of course if you know anything about chemistry, geology or physics, that knowledge simply interferes with the spiritual discernment necessary to know the truth. Or something like that.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by edge, posted 03-06-2015 9:12 PM edge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 10:52 AM NoNukes has replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 336 of 1053 (751967)
03-07-2015 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 332 by edge
03-07-2015 9:19 AM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
edge writes:
... if the layer was deposited on land it could have been immediately eroded just as the MSH ash is gone from most continental areas today.
In a way, that would be one of the coolest things learned from the discovery -- it would provide 'snapshot in time' of what areas where exposed and what areas were underwater at that moment.
Just speculating the possibilities, backed up by no knowledge whatsoever.
JB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by edge, posted 03-07-2015 9:19 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by edge, posted 03-07-2015 11:31 AM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2240 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 337 of 1053 (751970)
03-07-2015 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 333 by ThinAirDesigns
03-07-2015 9:49 AM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
What a FUN story. One the most interesting aspects (to me) is the possibility that this discovery may have lead to the knowledge that kept some damn finger of the big red nuclear button. Who would have thought that the study of geology might have saved mankind (from themselves).
I will check out those links you provided. I real a lot and it's very little fiction, mostly science and biographies. Those sound very interesting.
JB
This story is also a very good way to show young people how scientific discoveries are actually made. Luie tried to use Ir as a "clock", but got unrealistic results. Rather than giving up and trying something else for a clock, he tried to understand why the Ir clock hadn't worked. In doing so, he made a huge new discovery.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-07-2015 9:49 AM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 338 of 1053 (751971)
03-07-2015 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 335 by NoNukes
03-07-2015 10:01 AM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
When you and RAZD and ThinAir continue to misrepresent my point of view you just keep me posting on this thread where I didn't want to be in the first place except to make a brief comment. I did not want to get into a discussion with edge because I didn't want to be on this thread at all, AND I know where those discussions go too. I've already been accused of "hijacking" this thread when I'm not the one prolonging the discussion. This has happened many times before and in the past I wasn't careful enough to cut off lines of discussion that others kept bringing up. I hoped to be more alert here, but I keep being required to defend myself from misrepresentations. ThinAir isn't even thinking clearly enough to know that the age of a canyon would have nothing to do with the deposition of the layers exposed in the walls of that canyon.
edge to Faith writes:
You keep saying things like this, but you never say why it is so.
The answer ought to be pretty obvious.
No discovery can be inconsistent with the Flood, because Flood believers will just invent properties for massive amounts of water that can reproduce any phenomenon. Because the Flood happened in the past, and you weren't there, then whatever they say is beyond challenge.
I have never made any such insane claim. What I've said about the Flood is perfectly reasonable. You could say the same thing about establishment Geology, that it just invents whole scenarios to fit their ridiculous idea that a solid slab of rock that spans thousands of square feet miles of geography represents a whole time period with its own flora and fauna.
Of course if you know anything about chemistry, geology or physics, that knowledge simply interferes with the spiritual discernment necessary to know the truth. Or something like that.
This is a pernicious misrepresentation.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by NoNukes, posted 03-07-2015 10:01 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by NoNukes, posted 03-07-2015 12:02 PM Faith has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1815 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 339 of 1053 (751973)
03-07-2015 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by ThinAirDesigns
03-07-2015 10:03 AM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
In a way, that would be one of the coolest things learned from the discovery -- it would provide 'snapshot in time' of what areas where exposed and what areas were underwater at that moment.
This refers back to the question of unconformities, which some YECs strenuously deny. And yet, there is the evidence...
Of course, it can all be explained by the flood!
Just speculating the possibilities, backed up by no knowledge whatsoever.
It all fits together if you follow the evidence far enough.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-07-2015 10:03 AM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 11:41 AM edge has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 340 of 1053 (751975)
03-07-2015 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by edge
03-07-2015 11:31 AM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
Alrighty, I guess I'm on this thread like it or not.
This refers back to the question of unconformities, which some YECs strenuously deny. And yet, there is the evidence...
The only kind of unconformity YECs deny is the purported absence of particular strata that establishment theory says should have been there instead. And speaking of evidence, nice clean contact lines may even exist where this "missing layer" is supposed to have been.
Otherwise we have other explanations for other kinds of unconformities. such as angular unconformities, but I have explained these not in terms of the Flood but in terms of the tectonic activity that must have followed the Flood.
Of course, it can all be explained by the flood!
A purported absence is certainly very easy to explain by the Flood, since we wouldn't expect such a catastrophe always to supply the layer Geology expects to have been there.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by edge, posted 03-07-2015 11:31 AM edge has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 341 of 1053 (751978)
03-07-2015 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Faith
03-07-2015 10:52 AM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
I did not want to get into a discussion with edge because I didn't want to be on this thread at all
I don't know who is forcing you to post here. But I'd be happy to put a headlock on him/her so that you can act according to your own will.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 10:52 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 12:06 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 342 of 1053 (751980)
03-07-2015 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by NoNukes
03-07-2015 12:02 PM


headlock
Misrepresent my argument and I do feel required for the sake of preserving my point of view to post here. Since you are one of the offenders let's see you perform a headlock on yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by NoNukes, posted 03-07-2015 12:02 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by ringo, posted 03-07-2015 12:14 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 346 by NoNukes, posted 03-07-2015 12:29 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 520 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 343 of 1053 (751982)
03-07-2015 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Faith
03-07-2015 12:06 PM


Re: headlock
Faith writes:
Misrepresent my argument and I do feel required for the sake of preserving my point of view to post here.
quote:
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
-- Abraham Lincoln

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 12:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 344 of 1053 (751983)
03-07-2015 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by ThinAirDesigns
03-04-2015 7:54 PM


Re: Carbon dating paper sought
TAD writes:
I'm seeing a paper by Dr. Robert Lee quoted time and time again in YEC circles and I'm trying to find the actual paper.
So Coyote generously provided me with the paper in question (appreciated). Pretty interesting.
I'm not sure what reputation the Anthropological Journal of Canada (AJC) had in the field, or what the qualifications of the writer were in regards to carbon dating. The journal has apparently been out of publication since 1982/83.
The very first thing I noticed that it listed Thomas E Lee as the Editor. A little research found that Thomas Lee is the father of Robert Lee (the paper author). Additionally, Thomas E Lee died right at the same time the publication of the AJC ceased. I would suspect that the timing was not a coincidence and that the AJC was likely not a peer reviewed publication of a well established organization, but rather a pet publication of one man (please note that last sentence is near total speculation but based on what I found). What we do know is we have son writing in daddy's paper. Take that for what it's worth.
As a note on the positive side, Thomas Lee is a person of enough renown to have a wikipedia page: Thomas E. Lee - Wikipedia
Here's where it gets interesting for me -- I came to the paper because its oft quoted presence on YEC sites. First remember it's a near 35 year old paper, but as it turns out, Robert Lee is repeatedly throughout the paper trying to make the point that reported carbon dates are TOO YOUNG. While he does mention a few situations (mostly hypothetical rather than examples) that could cause older dates, it's clear his problem with carbon dating up that that point was one of it reporting dates that were younger than what he considered reality.
This of course is just a perfect example of how the YEC crowd lies and misrepresents and quote mines to the ends of the earth in an attempt to keep their fantasy alive.
So now I know the full content of the paper and can respond if asked about his 'finding'. Thanks for the helpful resource.
(and on the topic or quote mining, I learned something from the paper (related to another author) that shows just how dishonest the YEC crowd is. I'll write about that in another post).
JB
Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-04-2015 7:54 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

Replies to this message:
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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2240 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(2)
Message 345 of 1053 (751984)
03-07-2015 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Faith
03-06-2015 2:25 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
The thing is, the existence of a worldwide deposition of iridium can be explained in terms of the Flood of Noah too, as evidence of a meteor hit during the Flood, dispersing its iridium along with all the sediments the Flood deposited. I've mentioned it many times here and HERE's one of those posts.
Faith, the problem with your position is not the Bible, or Creation, or even Noah's Flood. The problem is flood geology, which is extra-biblical, pseudo-scientific nonsense.
The problem is illustrated by what you say above. Flood geology does not help with the source of Ir. You still need an asteroid/meteor to provide the Ir. If you've got a large asteroid, which would have thrown lots of particles into the upper atmosphere, you've already got a good mechanism for spreading and dispersing the Ir worldwide. You don't need a worldwide flood to spread the Ir.
In fact, postulating a worldwide flood to spread the Ir creates more problems. According to flood geology, very thick layers of rock were laid down by a worldwide flood. If the flood laid down many meters or kilometers of material, why is the Ir excess concentrated into a single layer only a few centimeters thick? Floods can sort material by particle size or by density. But they can't sort material by chemical composition (or by isotopic concentration)! The Ir should have been spread throughout most, if not all, of the flood sediments, not concentrated into a thin layer.
This is the problem with flood geology. It may sound superficially plausible to a non-scientist, but as you drill down you will find that it does not and can not account for scientific details. Flood geology is not much more than a hand-waving plausibility argument.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Faith, posted 03-06-2015 2:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by edge, posted 03-07-2015 12:56 PM kbertsche has not replied
 Message 349 by NoNukes, posted 03-07-2015 1:15 PM kbertsche has replied
 Message 351 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 1:43 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
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