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Author | Topic: Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Yeah, sure, but to do that you totally misunderstand and misrepresent the arguments I've been making so your opinion is irrelevant.
You have not made any arguments. Only assertions that 'the fludde did it'. Give us something to work with...
If you can't visualize it the way I visualize it, and other creationists visualize it, your opinion is worthless.
If you can't present a cogent argument with some kind of support, your argument is worthless.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: If you can't visualize it the way I visualize it, and other creationists visualize it, your opinion is worthless.
That is the problem Faith, you rely on fantasy, what you can imagine. Test those fantasies Faith. Test them again and again and again to see if they reflect reality or are just fantasies.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Why don't they all look the same age? Oh good grief. There are different kinds of mountains, now, aren't there edgey wedgey? There are the kind that were thrust up in blocks of strata like the Rockies, which are highly compacted rock and less subject to erosion than others, and there are the kind that were more gently compressed accordion-style like the Appalachians, which are more easily eroded where the softer sediments are exposed, and there are mountains produced by volcanoes. Of course there's a difference in erosion and therefore in how old they look.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
My saying the earth was not "nothing but" rocks gets heard by you as saying "there were no rocks" before the Flood? What absolute nonsense I'm always having to answer here.
So, you admit that there were some rocks prior to the flood. Okay, now we're getting someplace. Okay, where did those rocks come from? Can we see their source after the rest of the earth slid into the ocean?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I've presented plenty of cogent arguments elsewhere. Believe it or not I'm trying NOT to stay on this thread. I'm simply being forced to answer some of the more egregious accusations and misrepresentations. I don't regard this as a thread for discussing the Flood and really don't want to be here. I just have to answer some of the craziness you are all throwing at me. If you would just back off and let the thread resume its original purpose of bashing creationists and trying to develop some kind of anti-creationist curriculum, as long as it didn't impinge on my own favorite issues I would be very happy to stay off it.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't know if there were rocks before the Flood or how many or where, and I never made any claims about that. I assume there was "bedrock" beneath the land mass. Beyond that I've never speculated about pre-Flood rocks.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
You also say in Message 363 you think it would behave like silt in water, and silt floats so I'd say we have some definite possibilities for explaining its dispersal during the Flood period. What your link says:
quote: Note that your reference refers to silt floating IN water -- the proper terminology today is that silt is easily suspended in water -- causing turbidity that lasts a long time. This is what I was discussing in Message 279:
Settling Velocity and Suspension Velocity quote: Bold added. The velocities in question are related to particle size, and Stoke's Law can be used to estimate those velocities:
Particle Size Analysis Lab quote: Bold added. (Essentially this critical velocity goes up with the square of the particle diameter} Basically, if the water is moving faster than the settling rate then the particles don't settle -- and a corollary is that IF you have a layer of silt, THEN the water was not turbulent or moving fast when it was deposited ... for the length of time it takes for the thickness of the silt layer to deposit. In addition Stoke's Law makes several assumptions to simplify calculations (I won't bother you with the background math):
quote: Laminar flow means no turbulence, no eddies. This works fairly well for sand and most silt, but some silts and clay have ionic charges that affect their interaction with other particles and with water (and why you can sometimes see fine organic silt floating on the surface of still water). So let's run some numbers: we'll throw a hypothetical handful of rocks, gravels, sands and silts into still water, starting with a 1cm diameter rock 10m deep (about 30ft) and that it takes 1 second to reach the bottom (which is on the fast side - close to the fall time in air - so these calculated velocities will err on the fast side):
(*): where d=days, h=hours, m=minutes, s=seconds)(**): used for comparison of relative speed and time -- actual times and velocities would be higher. Note that the clay particle velocity is 0.04 millimeters/second or 2.4 mm/minute ... about 0.1 inch/minute, essentially tranquil water, and that would be if clay were spherical particles with no interaction with water or other particles. They aren't, the shape is more like a flake, so it would take longer to settle and even slower water to allow it to fall from suspension. Note further, because of these different velocities the particles will sort by size in deposition at the bottom, largest first and smallest last. If you disturb the water a little then you would delay the smaller particles more than the large particles. The ONLY way you get large particles deposited on top of small particles is with a gap in time of undisturbed water with no additional deposition, so that the fine particles reach the bottom before the next large particles are introduced ... and as we see above that means several days of tranquility between waves of deposition. This means the Green River Varves took a very long time to be deposited. Much longer than your purported flood. Enjoy
ThinAirDesigns: this could be an interesting experiment for your students -- get a tall clear tube you can fill with water and then time how long it takes for various size (micrometer measured) particles. Also try diatomaceous earth - it has diatoms in it ... It's kind of like Galileo's experiment off the Piza tower, but done in water (which also demonstrates the effect of viscosity causing friction, which is negligible in air unless feathers -- and that gets into Reynolds Numbers) Edited by RAZD, : speeds relativeby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Why don't they all look the same age? Oh good grief. There are different kinds of mountains, now, aren't there edgey wedgey? There are the kind that were thrust up in blocks of strata like the Rockies, which are highly compacted rock and less subject to erosion than others, and there are the kind that were more gently compressed accordion-style like the Appalachians, which are more easily eroded where the softer sediments are exposed, and there are mountains produced by volcanoes. Of course there's a difference in erosion and therefore in how old they look.
So, the Appalachians and the Alps, arguably the same type of mountains, being caused by continent-continent collision with folded sedimentary sequences, should look the same?
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
I've presented plenty of cogent arguments elsewhere.
Well, I would hope so, since you have not presented any here.
I'm simply being forced to answer some of the more egregious accusations and misrepresentations. I don't regard this as a thread for discussing the Flood and really don't want to be here. I just have to answer some of the craziness you are all throwing at me. If you would just back off and let the thread resume its original purpose of bashing creationists and trying to develop some kind of anti-creationist curriculum, as long as it didn't impinge on my own favorite issues I would be very happy to stay off it.
Ah, so you have no choice.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
RAZD, I can't use all that information. I simply wanted to find out if silt could be carried on water to a place of deposition, and whether it is suspended or floats apparently it can be. Ocean water isn't "running" water but it is moving water and it would have been saturated with sediments and dead things as well.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
I don't know if there were rocks before the Flood or how many or where, and I never made any claims about that. I assume there was "bedrock" beneath the land mass. Beyond that I've never speculated about pre-Flood rocks.
Then I'm wondering why you said this:
quote:
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
So, the Appalachians and the Alps, arguably the same type of mountains, being caused by continent-continent collision with folded sedimentary sequences, should look the same? They do look the same on cross section as far as their accordion structure goes, and Lyell has diagrams of the Alps that show valleys that formed where exposed layers eroded away. But the overall difference in their appearance of age I suppose would be related to the fact that the Alps were pushed into much steeper and higher folds than the Appalachians.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
RAZD, I can't use all that information. I simply wanted to find out if silt could be carried on water to a place of deposition, and whether it is suspended or floats apparently it can be. Ocean water isn't "running" water but it is moving water and it would have been saturated with sediments and dead things as well.
Could you please refer us to a deposit of a single silt bed that was distributed all over the earth by ocean currents?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Do I really have to say it would saturate the land and collapse it very speedily "except where there are rocks?"
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There's no reason why silt would separate from sediment to be deposited separately is there? But asteroid powder would have a separate origin and be deposited separately. And as for stuff floating to its ultimate depositional resting place how about the uprooted plants that became coal seams?
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