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Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
edge
Member (Idle past 1824 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 406 of 1053 (752072)
03-08-2015 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by Faith
03-08-2015 11:55 AM


Re: Why Creation scoence can never be more than lies and conjobs.
They do look the same on cross section as far as their accordion structure goes, and Lyell has diagrams of the Alps that show valleys that formed where exposed layers eroded away. But the overall difference in their appearance of age I suppose would be related to the fact that the Alps were pushed into much steeper and higher folds than the Appalachians.
I'm sure that the profession appreciates your opinion, however, metamorphic zonation in the eroded Appalachians suggests otherwise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 11:55 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 12:21 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1824 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 407 of 1053 (752073)
03-08-2015 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by Faith
03-08-2015 11:56 AM


Re: Why Creation scoence can never be more than lies and conjobs.
Do I really have to say it would saturate the land and collapse it very speedily "except where there are rocks?"
Well, considering that this is what you wrote:
quote:
... continuous worldwide rain would turn the whole world into mud.
(bold added)
Yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 11:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 12:33 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1824 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 408 of 1053 (752074)
03-08-2015 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by Faith
03-08-2015 11:59 AM


Re: silt floats?
There's no reason why silt would separate from sediment to be deposited separately is there? But asteroid powder would have a separate origin and be deposited separately. And as for stuff floating to its ultimate depositional resting place how about the uprooted plants that became coal seams?
That doesn't answer my question...
ETA: And coal seams are not global deposits...
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

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 Message 405 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 11:59 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1562 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 409 of 1053 (752075)
03-08-2015 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by edge
03-08-2015 12:09 PM


Re: Why Creation scoence can never be more than lies and conjobs.
Suggests that the Alps are not steeper and higher?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by jar, posted 03-08-2015 12:30 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 410 of 1053 (752076)
03-08-2015 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 409 by Faith
03-08-2015 12:21 PM


Re: Why Creation scoence can never be more than lies and conjobs.
Reality shows that the Appalachians were originally even higher than the Alps.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 12:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 12:31 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1562 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 411 of 1053 (752077)
03-08-2015 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by jar
03-08-2015 12:30 PM


Re: Why Creation scoence can never be more than lies and conjobs.
Then there should be evidence of their former height.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by jar, posted 03-08-2015 12:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by jar, posted 03-08-2015 12:42 PM Faith has replied
 Message 429 by edge, posted 03-08-2015 3:09 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1562 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 412 of 1053 (752078)
03-08-2015 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by edge
03-08-2015 12:13 PM


Re: Why Creation scoence can never be more than lies and conjobs.
It would turn "the whole world" into mud NOW too, except for the rockiest mountain areas, which I'm sure did NOT exist before the Flood even if some rocky areas did, which I don't know and have never speculated about.

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 Message 407 by edge, posted 03-08-2015 12:13 PM edge has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2249 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 413 of 1053 (752079)
03-08-2015 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 376 by Faith
03-08-2015 12:44 AM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
Anyone can think up debunkery. My job is to think up ways to make it work. I don't see a problem with sedimentation rates and I don't see the Niagara Falls problem. Suspended versus floating, OK thanks for the correction.
The job of a scientist is not just to dream up a new theory and then "think up ways to make it work". A good scientist always tries to debunk his own theories first, before presenting them publicly. His theory not only has to WORK, it has to work BETTER than all other theories that have been proposed or that he can think up.
Luie's asteroid theory is a good example. Luie and Walter really wanted to make volcanos work as the source of iridium. This theory sounded plausible. But as they drilled down to the details, they concluded that volcanos could not reasonably account for the amount of iridium that was seen. This would have required an extremely massive amount of volcanism, which would have left other evidence, which was missing. Luie was forced to the asteroid theory by the data. Luie realized that the asteroid theory would sound outlandish, and he tried his best to debunk it himself, but couldn't. No other theory accounted as well for the experimental data.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 12:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 414 of 1053 (752081)
03-08-2015 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by Faith
03-08-2015 12:31 PM


Re: Why Creation scoence can never be more than lies and conjobs.
Guess what Faith, there is.
Study geology and history. In fact they were so high they dominated the climate of all the land on the Earth about 480 million years ago.
Of course North America didn't exist back then.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 12:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 12:51 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1562 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 415 of 1053 (752082)
03-08-2015 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 413 by kbertsche
03-08-2015 12:34 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
The job of a scientist is not just to dream up a new theory and then "think up ways to make it work". A good scientist always tries to debunk his own theories first, before presenting them publicly. His theory not only has to WORK, it has to work BETTER than all other theories that have been proposed or that he can think up.
But creationists have a different task whether you approve of it or not. Our job IS to reconcile scientific fact with the Bible. You may be content to let science destroy the Bible, some of us aren't. I'm no scientist but I'm not willing to let unbelievers trash God's word. That doesn't mean we should ever tolerate misrepresentations of actual facts, it just means we have to discover how the actual facts work into the Biblical framework we are given. This is the position that science has put us in. If we aren't doing science according to Hoyle, who cares?
Luie's asteroid theory is a good example. Luie and Walter really wanted to make volcanos work as the source of iridium. This theory sounded plausible. But as they drilled down to the details, they concluded that volcanos could not reasonably account for the amount of iridium that was seen. This would have required an extremely massive amount of volcanism, which would have left other evidence, which was missing. Luie was forced to the asteroid theory by the data. Luie realized that the asteroid theory would sound outlandish, and he tried his best to debunk it himself, but couldn't. No other theory accounted as well for the experimental data.
Good for them. Apparently they found the most plausible explanation. For a creationist that means we have to make use of it in terms of what the Bible shows us, or rethink the whole thing. There are creationists who are scientists who may do this rethinking, but otherwise we have to look for ways to reconcile it with the time factor and other information the Bible gives us.
I do this because I enjoy thinking about these things but also because other "Christians" don't seem to mind trashing God's word for the sake of "Science."
ABE: Whatever its merits, science is "the world" and it's the product of fallen humanity.
"What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul?"
The world is against the gospel, to side with the world is dangerous. To trust your fallen intellect over the word of God is very dangerous.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by kbertsche, posted 03-08-2015 12:34 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 421 by NoNukes, posted 03-08-2015 1:32 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 423 by kbertsche, posted 03-08-2015 1:40 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1562 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 416 of 1053 (752083)
03-08-2015 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by jar
03-08-2015 12:42 PM


Re: Why Creation scoence can never be more than lies and conjobs.
If you have even a shred of evidence, which I doubt, it's your job to spell it out, not refer me to a lifetime of geological study.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by jar, posted 03-08-2015 12:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by jar, posted 03-08-2015 1:00 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 417 of 1053 (752084)
03-08-2015 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 416 by Faith
03-08-2015 12:51 PM


Re: Why Creation scoence can never be more than lies and conjobs.
Too funny Faith. You don't need just one lifetime of study but many, many such lifetimes, Young Earth and the Biblical Floods have been totally refuted for hundreds of nyears.
The evidence is sand.
The evidence is salt beds.
The evidence is the White Cliffs of Dover.
The evidence are varves.
The evidence is everywhere and only liars, conmen, the delusional and willfully ignorant do not understand that the Earth is billions of years old and that none of the Biblical Floods ever happened.
You need to try to find explanations for what is seen and so far you have NEVER provided a method or model that can explain what is real.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 12:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 1:02 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1562 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 418 of 1053 (752085)
03-08-2015 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 417 by jar
03-08-2015 1:00 PM


Re: Why Creation scoence can never be more than lies and conjobs.
In other words you don't have a shred of evidence that the Appalachians were once higher than the Alps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by jar, posted 03-08-2015 1:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by jar, posted 03-08-2015 1:28 PM Faith has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2224 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 419 of 1053 (752087)
03-08-2015 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 415 by Faith
03-08-2015 12:42 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
I'm no scientist but...
You are exactly the opposite of a scientist.
For a creationist that means we have to make use of it in terms of what the Bible shows us, or rethink the whole thing.
That might be a good idea.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 12:42 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 420 of 1053 (752088)
03-08-2015 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 418 by Faith
03-08-2015 1:02 PM


Re: Why Creation scoence can never be more than lies and conjobs.
LOL
Yes I do.
We have the composition which is NOT soft but rather granite.
We have markers left where glaciers wore away at them really recently, just 20,000 years ago or so.
We have sands from the Appalachians found many hundreds of miles away.
We have the angles of the stumps that are left.
We have the evidence of the climate across Pangaea over 400 million years ago.
We have the fact that parts (exactly the same materials and composition) were created in the same event that produced the Little Atlas mountains (now in Africa) and also parts of the Scottish highlands.
We have the evidence that they were not created in just one single event but rather a series of clollisions that pushed ocean floors up into mountains.
But the Appalachians are just one of the thousands and thousands, millions even, examples that prove the Earth is NOT 6000 years old and that None of the Biblical Floods actually happened.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 1:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 424 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 1:41 PM jar has replied
 Message 430 by edge, posted 03-08-2015 3:21 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
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