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Author Topic:   The Bully Swarm Thread, off the Earth Science Curriculum thread
jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 99 of 155 (752376)
03-10-2015 11:09 PM


What you can see when you open your eyes.
Faith tries dancing but once again it seem she just doesn't know the steps.

Earlier we were discussing evaporite salt beds, ones that are hundreds of feet thick and buried tens of thousands of feet underground.

She tries then to change the subject to "Salt Domes" hoping I guess that no one would notice that she was trying to change the subject. Salt is salt after all.

But it's pretty easy for scientists to tell the difference between a salt bed and a salt dome and they even use two terms so the two are not confused.

The salt bed is laid out over great areas, often really wide areas, often under several states. The beds are horizontal and layered.

Salt Domes (notice it is a different term than salt bed) though are intrusions where salt from a salt bed intrudes into an overlying system, deforming the overlying rocks.

But what is the process, the model, the method, the mechanism involved.

First is the creation of the salt bed. An area is needed where there is an inflow of salt water but a restricted outflow. Water is lost through evaporation until the salt precipitates out. Gradually over time the bed of salt gets thicker. Often, if the salt water inflow is seasonal you get periods when dirt and clay and other minerals blow in on the surface forming the distinctive banding that is seen followed by another cycle of salt formation.

Eventually the bed of salt itself get covered, the inflow get halted, and the whole bed gets covered. We know this because that is what we see. The bed is now buried tens of thousands of feet underground yet for the salt to have formed it must have once been at the surface.

As more and more dirt accumulates over the salt bed it compresses, eventually becoming rock (what type of rock depends on other factors) but is denser than just soil.

Salt though is funny. If you have ever looked at salt under a microscope you know that it forms regular cubes. It is the crystal nature of salt that limits compaction and so it remains less dense than the overlying rock. That means the salt will be more buoyant and will tend to float. The crystal lattice also allows salt to behave as a plastic and to flow. If there is any significant faulting (pretty common, just look at every day's list of earthquakes) the salt can flow vertically as well as horizontally forming intrusions.

It is the intrusions that are termed "Salt Domes" to distinguish the two processes, models, method and procedures.

So science has examined the evidence and has found detailed models, processes, methods and procedures that will produce what is seen in reality.

But they all take time. Not just six thousand years but rather millions or billions of years.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 03-10-2015 11:40 PM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 103 of 155 (752380)
03-10-2015 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
03-10-2015 3:51 PM


the Flood don't fit in.
Faith writes:

There's no point in pondering the details of a process if you don't have the slightest clue how it fits into the Flood.

Yet Faith, folk have pondered. Unfortunately for you, in over two hundred years of pondering what has been discovered is that the flood does not fit with ANY evidence that has been found from any branch of science using any technology.

The honest truth is that none of the Biblical Floods ever happened.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 03-10-2015 3:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 03-10-2015 11:41 PM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 105 of 155 (752382)
03-10-2015 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Faith
03-10-2015 11:40 PM


Re: What you can see when you open your eyes.
Faith writes:

Yeah well once you've assumed the millions of years anything's possible. However, what is NOT possible is that layers that are deposited on top of a sagging layer over millions of years would follow the contour of that layer.

But again Faith, what we see today is that layers being laid down DO follow the contour of the layers laid down yesterday.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 03-10-2015 11:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 03-10-2015 11:43 PM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 106 of 155 (752383)
03-10-2015 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Faith
03-10-2015 11:41 PM


Re: the Flood don't fit in.
Faith writes:

There was one Biblical Flood.

Two bad the Bible says you are wrong yet again Faith.

Have you ever actually read the Bible?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 03-10-2015 11:41 PM Faith has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 108 of 155 (752385)
03-10-2015 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
03-10-2015 11:43 PM


Re: What you can see when you open your eyes.
Faith writes:

Gravity makes that impossible

Likely she is referring to "But again Faith, what we see today is that layers being laid down DO follow the contour of the layers laid down yesterday." from Message 105.

I beg your pardon? Can you provide the model, method, process or procedure involved in your assertion?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 03-10-2015 11:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 123 of 155 (752412)
03-11-2015 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by herebedragons
03-11-2015 10:39 AM


Places that should be visited.
There is no picture that can begin to do the GC justice or give even a hint at the sheer scale of the place. My visit to the GC was before I really started thinking about this whole young earth vs. old earth debate and pretty much assumed the earth was young, just as the Bible supposedly presents it. But I remember trying to imagine how those features could have possibly formed in a single flood event. It was just... indescribable...

There are several places that really provide that kind of contrast and I've been lucky enough to visit several of them.

The Calvert Cliffs are one such place. There you can find giant Megladon teeth and clam shells sticking out of the cliff face (back when I went there, before the Nuclear Power Station, you could still climb the cliff face just from fossil to fossil) while you can watch modern shark teeth and clam shells wash up on the shore.

The Petrified Forest and Painted Desert. The simple scale of those two places left me in awe.

A planetarium. Look out at the universe through an older optical telescope and see time.

Pull over at a highway cut where they widened the pathway for a highway. Look at the exposed layers and then at the tiny surface of soil at the top.

An archeological dig. Many have a need of volunteers and even have programs for amateurs. It is eye opening to see just what scientists actually do and the efforts they take to question their findings.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by herebedragons, posted 03-11-2015 10:39 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 130 of 155 (752425)
03-11-2015 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Faith
03-11-2015 11:31 AM


water runs down hill
Faith writes:

You're talking about an enormous quantity of sediment to fill in an actual landscape. What happens to the usual idea of how the strata were deposited layer by layer? Do core samples show you that something else is going on here than the usual deposition of strata?

Faith, that is the usual way strata are deposited. High spots get weathered and that material gets deposited in low spots.

Reality shows us that happening as well as core samples and mines and modern technology.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 03-11-2015 11:31 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Faith, posted 03-11-2015 11:48 AM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 135 of 155 (752432)
03-11-2015 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Faith
03-11-2015 11:48 AM


Re: water runs down hill
Faith writes:

Excuse me but this is absurd. Why should the "high spots" contain one and only one sediment or at least the characteristic mix of sediments we find in some layers? And how after tumbling down from the high places to the low places does it sort itself into nice horizontal layers? And how over millions of years of slow deposition would it actually cover over a whole landscape and then become the extremely flat horizontal base for the deposition of the next layer. THIS IS FLAMING NONSENSE.

Well, what gets weathered and carried down hill will be what the high spot happens to be made from. That is one way that scientists can determine where material came from.

It does not really sort itself but rather over time either gets buried under additional layers of material, compressed and become rock, or the low area gets lifted up and it in turn becomes the high spot to get weathered and worn down

But your idea of flat horizontal bases is also not what is actually seen in reality. As was pointed out in the thread Exploring the Grand Canyon, from the bottom up. the layers are not smooth or even horizontal and we can see where additional deposition takes place over bases that are not flat and horizontal. We also see in reality that sometimes layers get tilted where part is exposed at the surface. In such cases the exposed part then gets weathered, eroded and so we see abrupt changes in the layering.

All of this is pretty normal and just processes we can see going on even today, but they also require long periods of time, far longer than 6000 years and show no signs that there was either Biblical Flood.

The accepted explanations explain what is seen in reality but NO ONE has ever presented a model, method, mechanism or process to create what is seen through any flood of any magnitude, to create what is seen in one year or even in 6000 years.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Faith, posted 03-11-2015 11:48 AM Faith has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 151 of 155 (752461)
03-11-2015 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Faith
03-11-2015 1:36 PM


There's a pattern there Faith
Faith writes:

I'm not interested in getting the terms right and finding out exactly what an underground river is. The point is that I see no reason to think of any of what is seismically imaged and called "ancient rivers" or "canyons" was ever on the surface.

I don't care that what I'm doing is not Science as you all so puristically insist it be done. If you want only scientists at EvC PUT UP A SIGN SAYING SO AND THE REST OF US WILL STAY AWAY.

There is a pattern there Faith and it is not just about science, facts or reality.

You don't care that terms actually have meaning or that what is seen is actually what is seen or what Calvin actually says or what is actually written in the Bible stories and that is why you continually post stuff that is just plain wrong.

You claim to see no reason any of what is seismically imaged and called "ancient rivers" or "canyons" was ever on the surface yet never provide a model, method, process or mechanism that could explain what is seen that does not require those artifacts to have once been on the surface.

This has been true so far of every single example of what really exists whether we are talking about the Bible or science or what Calvin actually wrote.

All anyone has ever asked of you is that when you make assertions that you actually try to back up those assertions with evidence and the model, process, method or mechanism that explains the evidence.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Faith, posted 03-11-2015 1:36 PM Faith has not yet responded

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