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Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


(1)
Message 511 of 1053 (752493)
03-11-2015 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 506 by RAZD
03-11-2015 4:52 PM


Re: "herstories" of women scientists
RAZD writes:
What about "herstories" of women scientists and their works?
Excellent suggestion.
Thanks
JB

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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


(1)
Message 512 of 1053 (752494)
03-11-2015 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 510 by RAZD
03-11-2015 8:23 PM


Re: "experimental error"
RAZD writes:
In theory you would never get 2.5 heads or 2.5 tails, but that would be the long term average -- and now you can talk about accurate values and precise values.
Another excellent suggestion. Precision vs accuracy was very near and dear to my heart in my previous line of work (object tracking)
JB

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 513 of 1053 (752495)
03-11-2015 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 511 by ThinAirDesigns
03-11-2015 8:46 PM


Re: "herstories" of women scientists
Don't forget Amazing Grace Hopper

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 514 of 1053 (752497)
03-11-2015 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by kbertsche
03-10-2015 11:38 AM


wrapping up Reynold's number
The Reynolds number determines which approximation to the nonlinear fluid dynamics equations should be used. Stoke's Law only applies to low Reynolds number situations. For particles in water, this means a diameter << 1 mm. Your marbles are too big for Stoke's law to apply.
Check me to see if I get this right:
http://www.engr.uky.edu/~egr101/ml/ML3.pdf (symbols changed for consistency below, bold added)
quote:
For now we will define the Reynold’s number as,
NR = ρf*V*D/μ
where NR is Reynold’s Number, ρf (fluid) is the mass density of the fluid, V is the velocity of the fluids relative to the sphere, and D is the diameter of the sphere. (and μ is the fluid viscosity)
The application of the Reynold’s Number to fluids problems is to determine the nature of the fluid flow conditions — laminar or turbulent. For the case where we have a viscous and incompressible fluid flowing around a sphere, Stokes’ Law is valid providing the Reynold’s Number has a value less than 1.0. When utilizing Stokes’ Law, it is appropriate to verify the application of this law is appropriate.
So NR = 1.0 = ρf*V*D(max)
and D(max) = μ/(ρf*V)
Because this is the limit for laminar flow we can use the Stokes' equation for V ...
Stokes' Law: V = {g*(ρpf)*D^2)/(18*μ)}
Where V = velocity, g = gravity, μ = the fluid viscosity, ρp = density of particle, ρf = density of fluid, and D = particle diameter.
D(max) = μ/ρf*{g*(ρpf)D(max)^2/(18*μ)}
D(max)^3 = 18*μ^2)/{(g*ρf*(ρpf)}
D(max) = (18*μ^2)/{g*ρf*(ρpf)}^(1/3)
where D(max) = maximum diameter for laminar flow,
μ = the fluid viscosity, for water = 0.00089 kg/m*s
g = gravity, = 9.8 m/s^2
ρf = density of fluid, for water = 1000 kg/m^3 (by definition at 4°C iirc)
ρp = density of particle, for glass = 1922 kg/m^3
So D(max) = {(18*0.00089^2)/(9.8*1000*(1900-1000))}^(1/3)
D(max) = 0.00012 meters
D(max) = 0.12 mm
for glass particles in water. Steel particles would be smaller still.
Larger than this diameter would result in turbulent flow which expends kinetic energy to the water in the wake reducing the kinetic energy for the marble so the velocity would be slower than the Stokes' Law (by a factor of 80 for the marble?), ... ie the drag from the turbulent flow slows the particles more than in laminar flow.
Now I have to check the corn oil and corn syrup for laminar flow ... after you check my numbers?
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : clrty

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This message is a reply to:
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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2250 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 515 of 1053 (752499)
03-12-2015 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 514 by RAZD
03-11-2015 10:50 PM


Re: wrapping up Reynold's number
Check me to see if I get this right:
...
So
D(max) = 0.12 mm
You've done the math much more carefully than I did. It looks like you did it correctly, your number is consistent with my crude estimates, so I think your answer is right. (My estimates gave me 0.1 - 1 mm for the diameter.)
The main difference between the fluids that we have discussed is the viscosity; the density of all these fluids will be fairly similar to that of water. So if you can find a fluid with 10-20x the viscosity of water, you can do the experiment with 1-2 mm diameter spheres. This is reasonable; you could do demonstrations with BBs, lead shot, ball bearings (from Grainger or McMaster-Carr), glass beads (from a craft store), etc.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

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Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 516 of 1053 (752503)
03-12-2015 4:54 AM


Questioning the Flood
I mentioned this in the Bully thread but this is probably a better place to bring it up.
On March 21 I will be attending the second of two sermons on the Flood at my wife's SDA church, after which the speaker said he would take questions. I don't know how
many of my dozens I will be able to raise, so I am interested in other folk's ideas on the best ones to start with.
I thought to start by asking how the Flood could sort fossils of all sizes including microscopic ones, pollens, different sediments, and chemicals especially specific isotopes in such a way that it allows all the standard long age deductions to be made because you see the same ones associated together and in the same geologic order.This could touch on carbon dating and ice ages which are sure to be topics on the day.
Most of the congregation are pretty conservative, and there are several teenagers, including two recently baptised.
Any suggestions for better starters?

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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


(1)
Message 517 of 1053 (752504)
03-12-2015 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 516 by Pollux
03-12-2015 4:54 AM


Re: Questioning the Flood
pollux writes:
I am interested in other folk's ideas on the best ones to start with.
Yes, it's a version of the same sort of things I'm working on. A curriculum for a one time meeting
Personally, I'm coming to like the salt bed question if going for the best one shot. jar does it well right here Message 64.
I would emphasize in the question how we can see the layers of clay, grit and other pollutants over and over (and over) horizontally between the salt. Describe how easy it is to just Google image search "salt mine" and see these layers in picture after picture. This will preemptively answer the response you may get regarding the nonsense that Stef Hereema puts out.
Stef argues that you don't see pollutants such as these and it's' patently false. He argues that you don't find fossils and we would hardly expect to find much life in and over such broad expanses of dead salt.
Pictures tell the story.
Good luck.
JB
EDIT: Oh, and since I'm intimately familiar with the theology you're dealing with, make sure and mention there are plenty of fossils in the layers *below* the salt beds. To them this means that what happened had to happen after "the fall".
Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2250 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(2)
Message 518 of 1053 (752664)
03-12-2015 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 516 by Pollux
03-12-2015 4:54 AM


Re: Questioning the Flood
On March 21 I will be attending the second of two sermons on the Flood at my wife's SDA church, after which the speaker said he would take questions. I don't know how
many of my dozens I will be able to raise, so I am interested in other folk's ideas on the best ones to start with.
One of my hobbies in high school was spelunking in the limestone caves of southern Indiana, in the same limestone belt that extends into Kenticky and includes Mammoth Cave. Crawling through these caves, it struck my how ridiculous (or magical) the YEC flood would have been. These caves were deposited in limestone, a sedimentary rock with fossils, which would have been laid down in the flood. Then the limestone had to harden. Then the caves had to be dissolved out by the floodwater. Then the stalactites and stalagmites had to form thousands of times faster than their current growth rate implies (I don't know how a flood could accelerate or even cause speleothem growth?!?). You might ask how the Flood could do all these things.
Another example is thick layers of coral (1000 feet or more thick in some coral reefs, I believe). Coral is formed from small living organisms that grow on the skeletons of their ancestors. Trying to accelerate their life cycle and growth rate thousands of times is ridiculous. Thus some YECs deny that these thick coral reefs even exist; they claim that these are just sedimentary deposits (from the Flood?) that LOOK like coral.
You can find other examples, with links to lots of supporting details, on the page "100 Reasons the Earth is Old". There are more examples in Dan Wonderly's old (but good) book, "God's Time Records in Ancient Sediments". Dan taught Geology briefly at Grace College until fellow faculty member John Whitcomb got him fired because he was not YEC.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 519 of 1053 (752665)
03-12-2015 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 517 by ThinAirDesigns
03-12-2015 6:25 AM


Re: Questioning the Flood
In my experience (and actually borne out here by Faith) once you get talking about salt beds someone immediately tries to switch to salt domes and so it is important to be ready to describe the difference and to provide the model, method, process and procedure that currently explains how they are created as in Message 99.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 520 of 1053 (752676)
03-12-2015 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 519 by jar
03-12-2015 8:56 AM


Re: Questioning the Flood
The point about salt domes has to do with questioning the timing of the laying down of the strata. How the salt was laid down is a different question.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 521 of 1053 (752683)
03-12-2015 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by Pollux
03-12-2015 4:54 AM


Re: Questioning the Flood
Any suggestions for better starters?
The likely results of your plan don't seem to be good outcomes for you or your wife. Would being shunned by folks at church matter to either you or your spouse? If you don't actually smell what the Rock is cooking, why are you at an SDA church?
I'm not trying to dissuade you, but surely you don't expect anyone to see the light? Or that you will encounter a pastor who is prepared to answer questions about nuclear physics? What would you consider a successful March 21 outcome?

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 522 of 1053 (752686)
03-12-2015 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 520 by Faith
03-12-2015 12:08 PM


Re: Questioning the Flood
Faith writes:
The point about salt domes has to do with questioning the timing of the laying down of the strata. How the salt was laid down is a different question.
LOL
Faith, so far there are no answers to either question that does not require more than 6000 years.
Unless you have a model, method, process, procedure that can explain creating the salt beds, burying the salt beds and then creating the salt domes in less than 6000 years you are still just talking nonsense.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 523 of 1053 (752687)
03-12-2015 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 521 by NoNukes
03-12-2015 12:21 PM


Re: Questioning the Flood
NoNukes writes:
What would you consider a successful March 21 outcome?
If you look at it based on the response of the people who run the church, I couldn't agree with you more. He will have to decide if his questions/statements are of enough value to offset the rather obvious responses by the leaders (and perhaps his wife).
The value *may* come however from an alternate view being presented in front of a younger generation that isn't quite as enamored with the status quo as the older crowd. Standing up to nonsense can bring disdain from one group while raising credibility with another more receptive group.
And beyond that hypothetical, I have zero ability to suggest the wisdom (or lack of) in presenting an alternate view while in the lions den.
JB

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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 524 of 1053 (752690)
03-12-2015 12:52 PM



  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 525 of 1053 (752691)
03-12-2015 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by kbertsche
03-12-2015 8:47 AM


Re: Questioning the Flood
kbertsche writes:
These caves were deposited in limestone, a sedimentary rock with fossils, which would have been laid down in the flood. Then the limestone had to harden. Then the caves had to be dissolved out by the floodwater. Then the stalactites and stalagmites had to form thousands of times faster than their current growth rate implies (I don't know how a flood could accelerate or even cause speleothem growth?!?).
I haven't had any time yet to research this one, but I've always felt that it could be a great thing to have in my curriculum simply because limestone caves are SO accessible in this part of the south. Thanks for reminding me to look into those processes.
Of course the hammer gives the boot to the theory that it takes a long time accomplish such.
JB

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