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Author Topic:   Evidence that the Great Unconformity did not Form Before the Strata above it
Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1 of 1939 (752801)
03-12-2015 12:42 PM


ABE: April 14: I'm surprised this thread kept going because I abandoned the argument in this OP not too far into it. But other arguments came up along the way that work as well or even better. /ABE

=============================

I see Percy just promoted the earlier thread and retitled it Origin of the Flood Layers. This proposal I just started putting together came off that thread but it's not about the Flood, it's about my usual attempt to disprove the Old Earth. I haven't exactly disproved it but I've made progress: I believe I now can show that the Great Unconformity at the bottom of the Grand Canyon was NOT formed before the strata were stacked above it.

If Percy thinks this belongs in the old thread, fine, I'll move it, but I'm putting it here for now because it seems like a different topic to me. Trying to prove the Flood is one argument, disproving the Old Earth is another.
=====================================

I'm back to my favorite cross section of the Grand Canyon. HERE's my last attempt to use this cross section at EvC, showing a variety of observations that I think undermine the Old Earth.

But I have a new emphasis this time, which needs a slightly different version of the cross section:

I may need to rewrite some of this as I go but here's my new approach:

I. THINGS TO NOTICE ABOUT THE CROSS SECTION:

1. The rounded rise into which the canyon is cut. I emphasized this shape with red lines following its contour above and below.

2. The rise or mound is also visible at the bottom of the canyon, not just the top, where the Great Unconformity butts up against it, right beneath the Tapeats.

3. All the strata as a block follow the contour of the mounded rise, from the Tapeats or Cambrian to the Kaibab or Permian.

II. OBJECTIONS THAT OCCUR

The cross section exaggerates the mounded rise vertically. In reality it stretches a long distance with a much more gradual slope. This is true but the rise is certainly a real feature of the area, and just to confirm this here is another cross section of the area:

This one is even more exaggerated vertically but I post it just to confirm that this mounded rise is definitely a real feature of the area.

III. THINGS TO CONSIDER:

1. The strata were already in place when the uplift occurred that created the mounded rise. Evidence for this is that the strata all follow the contour of the mound.

2. Whatever caused the rise lifted the whole stack of strata as a block. Evidence for this is that the rounded contour is at both the bottom and the top of the canyon: it rises over the Great Unconformity instead of the strata butting in to it, as they would if it was there before the strata were laid down.

3. This means that the Great Unconformity was NOT there before the strata were laid down. It was lifted right along with the whole stack, and probably tilted at the same time. Evidence is as above: the layers don’t butt up against the GU as they would if they were laid down after it was there, they rise up over it in the mounded shape, and the GU is clearly pushed up into the mounded area.

Here's a perfectly horrible attempt to show how the layers would have butted up against the Great Unconformity if it was there before the strata were laid down. I moved the GU down, figuring none of it was raised. The drawing may be so bad it isn't a good idea to post it, but I decided to just because the idea seems to need some kind of attempt at showing what I mean.

IV: CONCLUSIONS

Again, the strata would not have risen in a mound up over the Great Unconformity if they’d been laid down after it was already formed because then they would have butted up against it instead of going over it. My conclusion is that they were laid down flat and horizontal over the strata that became the GU, which at that time were also flat and horizontal, and some force from beneath then pushed the GU upward, tilting it, also pushing up the whole stack of strata so that the mound contour continues all the way to the top of the canyon, and that’s what caused the strata to mound over the Great Unconformity as the whole stack was raised. Whatever lifted the whole stack lifted and tilted the Great Unconformity at the same time.

I've tried to think of ways it could have happened according to the usual interpretation but it doesn't work. The mounded uplift is what makes the evidence. I kept working around all these things in former discussions but never got to the point of pinning down this one fact until now.

All this shows that the force, probably tectonic movement, occurred after ALL the strata were in place, including the then-horizontal strata of the Great Unconformity. This same tectonic force would also have been responsible for creating the canyon itself, and all the massive erosion that formed the Grand Staircase to the north and scoured off the Kaibab plateau.

So, did all the strata form according to the conventional time frames assigned to them, Precambrian for the strata that became the GU, 575 million years ago for the Tapeats on up to the Kaibab considered to have formed 270 million years ago?

This I can’t prove one way or another just from these observations. To make the case against the Old Earth I’d go back to my former post, linked above, to muster the evidence for the utter lack of any significant tectonic or volcanic disturbance during the entire laying down of the strata, NOW INCLUDING THE STRATA OF THE GREAT UNCONFORMITY, since I do think what I’ve shown above is that it could not have been there before the strata above it were laid down. Also that it had to have occurred at the same time as the pushing up of the strata in that mounded shape, and since that is the case, also at the same time as the cutting of the canyon and the Grand Staircase and ALL the tectonic and volcanic events I’ve spent so much time trying to show are nonexistent during the strata-building period.

So I conclude that now I’ve finally proved that the Great Unconformity did NOT preexist the laying-down of the strata.

ABE: There are of course many different reasons why the Geologists think the Great Unconformity was there long before the strata were laid down, but if what I've said above is true, it makes all the other reasons wrong.

ABE: On the subject of the Old Earth I should comment that I still think the fact that the strata are all together as a stack conforming to the contour of the mound shape suggests they aren't all that old. Old Earth dating says the lower strata are much much older than the higher and yet they all obviously have the same degree of ductility, and also have no apparent hint to a difference in their age in any other way. I've made this argument before and am told that rocks are a lot more plastic than I think, so the fact that the whole stack of strata curves together up over the Great Unconformity and curves together all the way up to the rim of the canyon, is supposedly not unusual. I still wonder about this, though, that's why I'm mentioning it here.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : change laid down to formed, for GU

Edited by Faith, : add last paragraph.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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 Message 38 by Percy, posted 03-14-2015 9:31 AM Faith has replied
 Message 63 by NoNukes, posted 03-14-2015 6:10 PM Faith has replied
 Message 103 by herebedragons, posted 03-15-2015 4:39 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 757 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 5 of 1939 (752824)
03-13-2015 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by PaulK
03-13-2015 8:47 AM


The argument seems to rest in the claims that the mounding must have occurred after all the strata were laid down and that the mounding and the tilting of the Great Unconformity must gave been the same event.

Yes, that's what I'm claiming to have proved. There is no way that the mounding of the entire stack of strata could have occurred after the Great Unconformity was formed because strata are originally laid down horizontally and do not curve up over obstacles, they butt up against them -- or possibly throw sediment on and over them but in a very haphazard way. They couldn't just lie down horizontally.

The fact that the entire stack curves over the Gr.U. in exactly the same way from bottom to top shows that they were all in place when the force occurred that raised them as a unit.

I've seen this before but this is the first time I saw how it works in relation to the G.U. THAT's the obstacle that proves the strata were already there. Some force had to have pushed up the entire stack and the G.U. is smack up against the lowest layer of the stack, and since the stack wouldn't have climbed over it, the force must have pushed up the G.U. along with the stack.

I don't see how the G.U. could already have existed tilted as it is because, again, layers that were laid down afterward would have to have butted up against it. So the logical conclusion is that the G.U. was formed at the same time: that is, the strata of which it is composed were broken and tilted by the force that raised the stack. This is what I've been visualizing for some time but this is the first time I realized that the way the stack of strata curves up over it is the evidence for it.

I don't think that either has been shown to be true

Well, it has, as I just reiterated above.

However, there is good evidence to the contrary.

If what I've said is true, contrary evidence is going to have to yield to it.

The tilted strata only survive where they have been lowered by faulting. Everywhere else they are gone.

Not clear. "Lowered by faulting?"

These faults do not propagate into the strata above them.

No reason they should if the tilting occurred under the same force that raised the stack of strata above: apparently the G.U. strata were more violently affected, and that would include faulting that affected only that formation as it broke and tilted and probably slid under the Tapeats.

It seems clear to me that these facts are best explained by the original tilting and the faults occurring long before the upper strata were laid down.

Except that clearly it didn't happen in that order as I believe I have finally shown. The upper strata could not have been laid down in the usual way after the G.U. was there, as I've explained, because they couldn't have curved up over the G.U., they'd have to have butted up against it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 757 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 9 of 1939 (752836)
03-13-2015 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by New Cat's Eye
03-13-2015 2:55 PM


Yes that occurred to me and I forgot to mention it. The only thing it changes is that any new layers would have butted up against the Vishnu rather than the GU itself, IF the Vishnu was there at the time, and that's a question I want to think about too. Same situation basically though. Originally depositng layers won't climb up over obstacles.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 757 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 10 of 1939 (752837)
03-13-2015 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by PaulK
03-13-2015 2:12 PM


I will reply by pointing out the problems with your argument
First it is possible for sediment to drape over existing contours provided friction and adhesion are sufficient to keep it in place. The concept of "angle of repose" seems relevant.

Angle of repose applies only to sand, and as you can see from a straight on view of the canyon walls the sandstone is just as flat and horizontal as any of the other layers.

The adhesive idea is pretty far-fetched. You aren't going to get a dozen layers all following the contour of a mound as they were being laid down. The only explanation for their conforming to the mound is uplift that occurred after they were all in place.

Second, I haven,t seen you give any reason why there cannot be two instances of uplift - or more.

There's just the one mounded formation. More than one instance of uplift is possible but wouldn't that just be saying that the mound occurred in stages?

If you mean the GU could have been uplifted in a separate event, I suppose so, but that wouldn't change the fact that the layers that subsequently deposited would have been disrupted by its presence. They need a flat surface to deposit on and I think the only way to explain how they had such a flat surface is that the GU didn't exist as they were depositing above the Precambrian, it too was just a block of flat horizontal layers and that's what the upper layers deposited on. If those lower strata were broken and tilted before the upper layers were laid down, again, it would have disrupted their laying down, but they are shown as quite undisturbed..

The faulting is quite obvious - you can even see that the two sections of tilted strata are not in the same level.

But again, it makes sense that only those blocks of layers were faulted as they were clearly separated from the upper and lower layers, tilted separately. They received more violence from the force beneath and that would have put stress on them.

Equally obviously the missing sections of those strata would have been higher.

If my scenario is correct those upper sections would have been sheared off in the abrasion between the GU layers and those above, in the force that uplifted it all.

I've suggested that the Vishnu schist that surrounds the GU could account for much of the material that was eroded away but the argument has been made that it doesn't show evidence of the right kinds of rock. But if there was rock above that sheared off we wouldn't know what that rock was, would we?

And certainly we should expect the faults to propagate upwards

Only if there was a continuous contact between the two blocks of layers. But the GU was formed separately.

and if they did not, then how did the rock above move down ? And where is the rest of the tilted strata?

What "rock above" are you talking about? And what do you mean by "move down?"

Until you can come up with a reasonable alternative, the position that the Great Unconformity strata were tilted long before the strata atop then were laid down seems quite secure.

Not if what I've shown above is true and you haven't shown it's not.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 757 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 12 of 1939 (752843)
03-13-2015 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by edge
03-13-2015 4:22 PM


Interesting that nothing you say addresses anything I said.

The biggest single problem for Faith is the principle of cross-cutting features.
The faults, which down-drop and preserve the GC Supergroup, cross-cut both the Vishnu and the GC Supergroup; and are therefor younger than both.

But there's no problem with this. Of course they'd be younger. So what? That doesn't mean they have to be millions of years younger, just younger than the rocks they cut through. You can build a stack of clay and then crack it. Same timing.

In turn, the faults are cross-cut by the Great Unconformity and are therefor older than the unconformity which is then superseded the overlying Paleozoics.

Which as I've said could not have deposited in a curve over these Precambrian formations. You still have to explain that.

The rest is just a bunch of details. Faith's story crashes ... burns ... suddenly and spectacularly.

Wishful thinking edge. You haven't addressed one thing I said.

It is ironic to me that Faith complains how the GC rocks can exist for so long without disturbance, but when we show her a period of disturbance prior to the Paleozoic rocks, she has to deny that it exists.

I don't "complain" about that, I consider it prime evidence against the Old Earth that they could exist so long without disturbance, and the assertion that it's not at all unlikely I find to be just that, an assertion that flies in the face of all the claims about this being such an active planet and all that. "Oh it was placid here for hundreds of millions of years while it was shaking and twisting elsewhere." Nope, that placidity here is good evidence against the Old Earth, and if it's been disproved in one place it must also be the case all over the globe that the Old Earth is a false interpretation. All the shaking and twisting came after the strata were in place. You can see this in the fact that everywhere you look the twisted strata are all strata that were originally horizontally laid down and then distorted in a block.

And of course I am rethinking the Precambrian disturbance as having occurred after all the strata were in place along with the disturbances that are so visible from the Kaibab on up. I've been seeing it this way for a long time but now I see solid evidence for it: how the curvature of the mound of strata above it shows that it couldn't have been tilted before those strata were laid down.

And you've completely failed to address this argument.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 757 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 14 of 1939 (752845)
03-13-2015 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by PaulK
03-13-2015 5:00 PM


Sediments make layers over mounds?
No, adhesion is a real thing. But more importantly, why wouldn't they conform? If the deposition comes from above - as we'd expect, and is evenly spread - as we expect the it would naturally follow the contours. You need to show that there has to be something that would level it out, and you haven't.

I can't believe the nonsense you are willing to say in defense of your Old Earth. Leaving aside for the moment your strange idea that it would come from above, one doesn't have to be a physicist to know that sediment is NOT going to neatly spread itself out over a contour. If you sprinkle sediment on a mounded surface it's going to slide off the surface and pile up at the bottom of the slopes. It is not going to form an evenly distributed layer that follows the contour. If the sediment is wet some if it might stick but it's still going to follow gravity down the slope and be a lot thicker at the bottom than along the slope. The striking thing about all the cross sections of the Grand canyon is how even the layers look climbing up and over this mound.

Oh well.

I don't have time right now for the rest of your post. Just had to say something about this.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 757 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 19 of 1939 (752853)
03-13-2015 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tanypteryx
03-13-2015 5:42 PM


Re: Sediments make layers over mounds?
No matter how gentle the slope you aren't going to get even deposition of sediments on it. And here we're talking about an entire stack of such layers supposedly about 300 million years apart in age all following this contour quite neatly.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 757 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 1939 (752859)
03-13-2015 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by edge
03-13-2015 6:28 PM


But there's no problem with this. Of course they'd be younger. So what? That doesn't mean they have to be millions of years younger, just younger than the rocks they cut through. You can build a stack of clay and then crack it. Same timing.

But they are older than the Paleozoic rocks.

The FAULTS are "older than the Paleozoic rocks." That's what you're saying?

I guess you're going to have to review your evidence for me because I'm not getting your point. How do you KNOW they -- the faults -- are older than the Paleozoic rocks-- those above the G.U.?

And how do you explain the stacking of a dozen layers following the contour of a mound and not butting into the older Precambrian formations?

Which as I've said could not have deposited in a curve over these Precambrian formations. You still have to explain that.

Yes, the fold came later in the form and uplift.

But what are you talking about? What could not have been 'deposited in a curve'?

What are YOU talking about? What "fold" are you talking about.

Strata. Layers, that's what I'm talking about. You know, that whole stack of them we see in the Grand Canyon, that particular block of them that starts above the G.U. that follow the contour of the mound I identify in the O.P. Perhaps you didn't really read my O.P.

Wishful thinking edge. You haven't addressed one thing I said.

Actually, I have. I have provided a sequence of events that does not violate cross-cutting principles.

So OK, please explain how what I'm saying "violates cross-cutting principles" because as usual you are talking Martian rather than English.

I don't "complain" about that, I consider it prime evidence against the Old Earth that they could exist so long without disturbance, and the assertion that it's not at all unlikely I find to be just that, an assertion that flies in the face of all the claims about this being such an active planet and all that.

So now you are saying that such an active planet should have only one tectonic event.

No I'm saying that according to Old Earth principles in light of the very familiar idea that this is a very active planet in which tectonic events have been going on for its entire history. that there should be LOTS of tectonic effects rather than the huge absence of them we see in the strata of the GC area.

Nope, that placidity here is good evidence against the Old Earth, and if it's been disproved in one place it must also be the case all over the globe that the Old Earth is a false interpretation.

Okay, so how many tectonic events should there be every million years? Why could there not be tectonically quiet zones on earth?

First, I don't think you guys even NOTICED this fact until I pointed it out to you and if you go back over those threads I think you'll find even roxrkool saying she would have expected quite frequent tectonic events too. How many? In hundreds of millions of years a LOT, that's all. A three hundred million year "quiet zone" is NOT the idea most of us get from standard presentations of geology.

All the shaking and twisting came after the strata were in place. You can see this in the fact that everywhere you look the twisted strata are all strata that were originally horizontally laid down and then distorted in a block.

I have just proven to you that there was a major erosional event in the middle of your flood, using your own information using the principle of cross-cutting features.

No you have used a lot of geo-jargon and you can't prove anything that way. You've said something muddy about cross cutting, communicating absolutely nothing. I've asked you to explain it again, and try to use ordinary English please.

And of course I am rethinking the Precambrian disturbance as having occurred after all the strata were in place along with the disturbances that are so visible from the Kaibab on up. I've been seeing it this way for a long time but now I see solid evidence for it: how the curvature of the mound of strata above it shows that it couldn't have been tilted before those strata were laid down.
And you've completely failed to address this argument.

Other than the fact that your question is gibberish, actually, I have. I just mentioned that the Kaibab Plateau uplift occurred after deposition. There were, however, prior events.

I don't recall you saying that and I have no idea what the point is anyway. And I didn't ask a question, gibberish or not.

But the problem here is familiar. You speak Geo Jargon and I speak English and I don't think there's any way to talk to each other at all.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 757 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 23 of 1939 (752860)
03-13-2015 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
03-13-2015 7:05 PM


Re: where did it go?
Over two vertical miles of rock are missing.

Oh right, the phantom mountains that supposedly grew from the Great Unconformity. Sure I can account for their being missing. They went *poof* and disappeared when the Old Earth Fairy who had poofed them into existence decided to do away with them.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 757 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 25 of 1939 (752865)
03-13-2015 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
03-13-2015 7:44 PM


Re: where did it go?
Then the missing stuff is incorporated in the Vishnu schist:

Closeup of the Great Unconformity, Tapeats sandstone of Cambrian age (~550 m.y. old) deposited on top of preCambrian metamorphic rocks. They are commonly called 'Vishnu Schist,' but K. Karlstrom and other have shown that they are really a mess of many different original rock types of several different ages.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 757 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 27 of 1939 (752867)
03-13-2015 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by New Cat's Eye
03-13-2015 7:49 PM


The "bump" is the uplift over which all the strata maintain their form, which shows that the uplift occurred after they were all in place. If it is the Vishnu schist that is pushed up into the "bump" form, fine, it really doesn't matter. The point is that the strata were NOT laid down after these formations were in place because they would NOT conform to the shape of the "bump" in that case.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 757 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 1939 (752870)
03-13-2015 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by New Cat's Eye
03-13-2015 8:13 PM


I'm sorry, I just find all this rationalization about how the layers could have conformed to the mound ridiculous. Utter and complete nonsense. That is not how the world works. You are not going to get nice even layers over a "bump." Especially if the layers are forming under water as even OE Geology says most of them were. And those layers are tens to hundreds of feet thick too.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 757 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 31 of 1939 (752871)
03-13-2015 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
03-13-2015 8:07 PM


Re: where did it go?
My theory fits the conclusion that the Vishnu is made up of lots of different kinds of rocks. They sheared off the SuperGroup under great pressure from the force that pushed it all upward into the mound shape and there was magma from beneath as well which probably was released by the same tectonic force, and the magma fried the sheared off rock into schist.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 757 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 34 of 1939 (752876)
03-13-2015 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by New Cat's Eye
03-13-2015 8:32 PM


Wet sediments seek the horizontal. If it's a very long incline they will nevertheless butt into it eventually. I can't read the legend at the bottom of the cross section but I'd guess the span of the "bump"is about 500 miles, and it rises from a thousand feet up to 9000 feet, about fifteen feet in a mile if I figured correctly. [ABE, no, I didn't figure correctly. It would rise to the highest point more sharply, about 27 feet in a mile. I made the mistake of including the whole span, both rise and fall]. That's not much, but a layer say 50 feet high is going to run into / butt up against the slope and not go over it after less than four miles. {ABE Less than two at 27 feet in a mile..

ABE: Don't know what I was thinking. I'd found some time ago that the distance from the Grand Canyon to the north end of the Grand Staircase was about two hundred miles. I just checked Google and the distance from the GC to Cedar Breaks at the N end of the GS is only 113 miles.

SO the mound is a little less than half that distance, call it fifty miles, rising from 1000 to 9000 feet or 8000 feet, making a rise of 160 feet in one mile. Even that's not much but still enough for three fifty-foot layers to butt into it in one mile. /ABE

Besides, we also have the interesting fact that the Great Unconformity is smack dab right beneath the highest part of the mound, and in very close proximity to the canyon. I've argued before that the canyon had to have been the result of strain in the upper strata, which were more than two miles deep at that point, caused by the force of the uplift that also broke and tilted the strata that became the Great Unconformity. Sure is suggestive that all the events are related. And I still think that view has to be correct, however hard it is to prove it.

But of course maybe not hay? Maybe the strata had no problem spreading themselves along the contour of the mound, wet or not, and maybe the Great Unconformity was the root of a mountain chain that managed to erode down absolutely flat, :eyeroll: which is what I thought the strata supposedly built on, but that would mean the mound wasn't there yet. OR, the mound WAS there, which is it? Nothing caused it though. But then eventually there was some kind of uplift etc etc etc.

The GU crosscuts the faulting and that proves something or other. Oh yes, It was all there before the strata.

Something like that.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : strikeout and rewrite


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-13-2015 8:32 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 757 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 39 of 1939 (752892)
03-14-2015 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by kbertsche
03-14-2015 2:09 AM


Truth
Paul says that GOD can be ascertained in Nature, not truth about Nature itself.

And it's ridiculous to say that nature and the Bible are equal sources of truth. Nature has to be figured out by fallible humanity, but the Bible is written to us in actual language. This is in fact the most transparently self-serving rationalization for Christians to accept the Old Earth.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 36 by kbertsche, posted 03-14-2015 2:09 AM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
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