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Author Topic:   Origin of the Flood Layers
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 513 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 211 of 409 (753097)
03-16-2015 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by edge
03-16-2015 5:27 PM


As usual I have another scenario in mind about how it could have happened after the strata above it were in place but I'm tired of battling all this right now so you are spared an attack of high blood pressure or whatever it does to you.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 213 by Coyote, posted 03-16-2015 8:40 PM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33501
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 212 of 409 (753099)
03-16-2015 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Faith
03-16-2015 7:32 PM


as usual, Faith has nothing ... absolutely nothing
Faith writes:

As usual I have another scenario in mind about how it could have happened after the strata above it were in place but I'm tired of battling all this right now so you are spared an attack of high blood pressure or whatever it does to you.

Honestly Faith, speculation about a flood that absolutely never happened can't cause high blood pressure, maybe chest pains from laughing.

But honestly all you need to do is provide a model, method, mechanism, process, procedure that expalins what is seen better than the current models, methods, mechanisms, processes and procedures.

Unfortunately so far no one has been able to do that for at least 200 years now.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Faith, posted 03-16-2015 7:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 213 of 409 (753102)
03-16-2015 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Faith
03-16-2015 7:32 PM


What-ifs
As usual I have another scenario in mind about how it could have happened after the strata above it were in place but I'm tired of battling all this right now so you are spared an attack of high blood pressure or whatever it does to you.

Faith, your "what-ifs" are not evidence.

What you are doing is the functional equivalent to explaining how the moon came to be made of green cheese. An equivalent "what-if" might be that a really giant mouse dropped it on the way through the solar system. Another, more detailed what-if might be that the moon was once made of skim milk and the herb, blue fenugreek (Trigonella caerulea), and a little heat, some pressing, and then some drying turned it into a nice Schabziger cheese. You could even add the date that all these events occurred, as well as a lot more accompanying details.

But no matter how much detail you add, it does not change the fact that the moon is not made of green cheese. A whole ark-load of what-ifs does not add up to a single piece of evidence.

Likewise, there was never a global flood during human times.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Faith, posted 03-16-2015 7:32 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 03-16-2015 9:00 PM Coyote has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 513 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 214 of 409 (753103)
03-16-2015 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Coyote
03-16-2015 8:40 PM


Re: What-ifs
The thing about my what-ifs as you call them, is that they are in many cases plausible alternatives to the conventional view. I think just the alternative views I've accumulated so far, in both geology and biology, add up to a very serious challenge to the conventional view. You never know, one of these days such a what-if may actually present itself with the inescapable evidence I've been hoping to find.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 217 by Coragyps, posted 03-16-2015 9:42 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 218 by jar, posted 03-16-2015 10:07 PM Faith has responded
 Message 222 by NoNukes, posted 03-17-2015 12:21 AM Faith has responded
 Message 225 by herebedragons, posted 03-17-2015 7:58 AM Faith has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2931
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 215 of 409 (753104)
03-16-2015 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Faith
03-16-2015 9:00 PM


Re: What-ifs
You never know, one of these days such a what-if may actually present itself with the inescapable evidence I've been hoping to find.

Yea thats the beauty of science, there is no absolute truth everything can be questioned. But until that day comes we stick wit the theory that fits and works.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 03-16-2015 9:00 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 216 of 409 (753106)
03-16-2015 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Faith
03-16-2015 9:00 PM


Re: What-ifs
The thing about my what-ifs as you call them, is that they are in many cases plausible alternatives to the conventional view. I think just the alternative views I've accumulated so far, in both geology and biology, add up to a very serious challenge to the conventional view. You never know, one of these days such a what-if may actually present itself with the inescapable evidence I've been hoping to find.

The problem with your "what-ifs" is they are not evidence based, and as such not "plausible." In some cases they are mutually exclusive! And in virtually all cases (or maybe all cases) they are contradicted by an ark-load of evidence.

If all of your "what-ifs" were internally consistent and evidence based, you'd have something. The problem is they are ad-hoc explanations made up on the spur of the moment with no supporting evidence, no attempt to be internally consistent and in accordance with the evidence, and designed solely to support religious belief.

Talk about a house of cards! Cards are sturdy in comparison.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 03-16-2015 9:00 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 217 of 409 (753107)
03-16-2015 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Faith
03-16-2015 9:00 PM


Re: What-ifs
And Faith - you still can't find a single lonely little crab in a trilobite bed, or even one sad trilobite among the crab fossils.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33501
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 218 of 409 (753108)
03-16-2015 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Faith
03-16-2015 9:00 PM


Re: What-ifs
Faith writes:

The thing about my what-ifs as you call them, is that they are in many cases plausible alternatives to the conventional view.

Well, no Faith, they are not plausible when as is always the case the actual evidence refutes your what-ifs.

Faith writes:

I think just the alternative views I've accumulated so far, in both geology and biology, add up to a very serious challenge to the conventional view. You never know, one of these days such a what-if may actually present itself with the inescapable evidence I've been hoping to find.

Well no Faith, they present no challenge. They are all refuted by the actual evidence, by reality.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 03-16-2015 9:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 513 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 219 of 409 (753110)
03-16-2015 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by jar
03-16-2015 10:07 PM


Re: What-ifs
Most of the "refutations" are built on complete misunderstandings of the point I'm making. I get tired of trying to correct them.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by jar, posted 03-16-2015 10:07 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Coyote, posted 03-16-2015 11:48 PM Faith has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 220 of 409 (753111)
03-16-2015 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Faith
03-16-2015 11:33 PM


Re: What-ifs
Most of the "refutations" are built on complete misunderstandings of the point I'm making. I get tired of trying to correct them.

Sorry, no. We understand very well what you are trying to claim. In almost every case your claims are wrong and we have the evidence to show that.

You make things up not to convince us, but to provide you "what-ifs" so that you can continue to think your beliefs are accurate, or at least not contradicted. That lets you continue to hold those beliefs since if you were to accept that your what-ifs are wrong, you would no longer be able to hold those beliefs.

So, you cast a cloud of what-ifs all around you, use them as a shield, and replace them as necessary. All without ever worrying much about how sensible they are, how accurate they are, or the ark-loads of evidence that contradicts them.

You see, their purpose is not to fool us, but only to fool yourself...


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Faith, posted 03-16-2015 11:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 03-17-2015 12:02 AM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 513 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 221 of 409 (753112)
03-17-2015 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Coyote
03-16-2015 11:48 PM


Re: What-ifs
Come to EvC and get psychoanalyzed. They don't get your arguments but they sure know all about why you make them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Coyote, posted 03-16-2015 11:48 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 222 of 409 (753113)
03-17-2015 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Faith
03-16-2015 9:00 PM


Re: What-ifs
The thing about my what-ifs as you call them, is that they are in many cases plausible alternatives to the conventional view.

Lots of ideas seem plausible prior to vetting them. It is simply no good coming up with ideas that at the time of conception are inconsistent with the existing evidence.

The lack of knowledge works against the absolute novice, particularly one who will not take the time to reject any of his own ideas.

I think just the alternative views I've accumulated so far, in both geology and biology, add up to a very serious challenge to the conventional view.

Yes, but the standard for evaluating 'serious challenge' is quite low, namely 'Can I maintain my own beliefs in the face of scientists saying otherwise'.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 03-16-2015 9:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 513 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 223 of 409 (753116)
03-17-2015 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by NoNukes
03-17-2015 12:21 AM


Re: What-ifs
Believe it or not I'm not worried about "my own beliefs" at all.

When I say the ideas I'm talking about are plausible and a serious challenge to the conventional views, in my opinion THEY ARE OBJECTIVELY PLAUSIBLE AND OBJECTIVELY A SERIOUS CHALLENGE. Stop pretending you know more about what I think than I do.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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vimesey
Member
Posts: 1264
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 224 of 409 (753121)
03-17-2015 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Faith
03-17-2015 2:00 AM


Re: What-ifs
THEY ARE OBJECTIVELY PLAUSIBLE AND OBJECTIVELY A SERIOUS CHALLENGE.

But what are your criteria for objective plausibility ? What's the yardstick ?

Clearly, it can't be that you think that they're objectively plausible - that's just another iteration (a restatement, really) of subjectivity. What's the measure of something being objectively plausible ?


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 03-17-2015 2:00 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 225 of 409 (753123)
03-17-2015 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Faith
03-16-2015 9:00 PM


Re: What-ifs
The thing about my what-ifs as you call them, is that they are in many cases plausible alternatives to the conventional view.

I am going to go against the mainstream here and say that "what-ifs" are actually an important pat of the scientific process. It's the kind of questions that lead us into new ways of thinking, new ways of looking at problems. There is nothing wrong with proposing a "what-if" scenario. The problem is how you deal with responses to your "what-ifs."

I think just the alternative views I've accumulated so far, in both geology and biology, add up to a very serious challenge to the conventional view.

This is what I mean. They only present a serious challenge in your own mind, because you dismiss and ignore evidence that goes against your "what-ifs" and you cling tenaciously to them.

You never know, one of these days such a what-if may actually present itself with the inescapable evidence I've been hoping to find.

And this is an example of the wrong approach to science that you keep being accused of... You already know the correct answer, now you just need to find the evidence for it. However, that evidence seems to be eluding you. If there really was a global flood 4,440 years ago, the evidence would NOT escape detection - you would certainly be able to find this ever elusive, inescapable evidence.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 03-16-2015 9:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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