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Author Topic:   Evidence that the Great Unconformity did not Form Before the Strata above it
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 1644 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 136 of 1939 (753053)
03-16-2015 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by JonF
03-16-2015 9:04 AM


Re: Bible truth vs. Science
JonF writes:

I asked you explicitly if your interpretation of the Bible was infallible and you sid yes. More than once. Can't find those right now but I do see that someone else noticed:

Message 469

Message 1255

JonF writes:

Is your Biblical interpretation infallible?

Faith writes:

On this subject, yes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by JonF, posted 03-16-2015 9:04 AM JonF has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 137 of 1939 (753071)
03-16-2015 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by kbertsche
03-16-2015 12:51 AM


Sorry, but I disagree. Yes, Christian apologetics attempts to develop rational, logical arguments to defend the claims of Christianity.

Coyote and I have discussed this before. Apologetics gets a bad rap here. The term is intended to apply to philosophical and theological arguments for Christianity based on logical reasoning from universal or widely accepted principles. As taught in universities, Apologetics was never meant to include a defense of Creation Science, which is a relatively modern endeavor.

Apologetics is a valued and reasonable Christian practice. It has absolutely nothing to do with lying for Jesus or self deception. In fact, Apologetics should be a part of every Sunday offering from the pulpit.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 1939 (753086)
03-16-2015 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Faith
03-15-2015 3:33 PM


Re: Bible truth vs. Science
Sorry, to resolve a conflict between science and the Bible you don't choose in favor of science and make the Bible conform to it.

I'll bet I can catch you doing exactly that.

Besides that, expressing an honestly held opinion is never dishonest.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 03-15-2015 3:33 PM Faith has taken no action

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 715 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 139 of 1939 (753101)
03-16-2015 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by kbertsche
03-16-2015 12:51 AM


Kbertsche: I believe I owe you an apology. Although I disagree with your view that death was natural for animals, since I believe that death is death and there was no death at all before the Fall, I discovered that even Martin Luther held this view. Of course I disagree with him too, but it's certainly clear it wasn't an idea invented to accommodate to the Old Earth, which didn't exist in his time.

So I'm sorry for accusing you of avoiding persecution and leaving other Christians in the lurch.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 1644 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


(3)
Message 140 of 1939 (753105)
03-16-2015 9:18 PM


In their day and age, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Philipp Malanchthon, Bellermine and ALL the giants of Christianity believed and insisted that the earth sat unmoved and the heavens rotated around us. They declared those who disagreed to be apostate and even devil possessed. They claimed that if science and the bible contradicted, it wasn't the bible that was going to be altered because all science had to be measured against the bible. The verses proclaiming geocentricity were "divine evidence" and who has the authority to argue against the divine?

We all know how the above worked out - in time, the tools of science laid low the "divine" verses and today, only the strangest of the strange argue as Martin Luther did. Forget the past and one is apt to repeat it.

Arguing that all plant and animal life was created together, that there was no death until ~6000 years ago, and that the major geological features are the product of a world-wide Noahic flood is simply repeating the same error that the giants of Christendom made in the face of the overwhelming evidence all those years ago. The evidence simply doesn't support it and a few hundred years from now YEC will be considered the domain of the complete and total weirdos.

2 miles of missing rocks (and endless other evidences) don't lie.

JB

Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 03-16-2015 11:31 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied
 Message 144 by Tangle, posted 03-17-2015 3:54 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied
 Message 159 by RAZD, posted 03-17-2015 11:52 AM ThinAirDesigns has taken no action
 Message 161 by kbertsche, posted 03-17-2015 4:55 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 715 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 141 of 1939 (753109)
03-16-2015 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by ThinAirDesigns
03-16-2015 9:18 PM


You really should provide some quotes in evidence for all that.

But the really odd thing is that you have Martin Luther holding the creationist view he actually didn't hold, since he and kbertsche agree on death being natural to animals.

And I still haven't seen the basis for the idea of two miles of missing rock -- assertions galore notwithstanding -- so I have no idea whether it lies or not.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-16-2015 9:18 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by NoNukes, posted 03-17-2015 1:18 AM Faith has replied
 Message 145 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-17-2015 4:21 AM Faith has taken no action
 Message 147 by herebedragons, posted 03-17-2015 7:40 AM Faith has taken no action
 Message 153 by jar, posted 03-17-2015 9:49 AM Faith has taken no action
 Message 157 by NoNukes, posted 03-17-2015 10:40 AM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 1939 (753115)
03-17-2015 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
03-16-2015 11:31 PM


But the really odd thing is that you have Martin Luther holding the creationist view he actually didn't hold, since he and kbertsche agree on death being natural to animals.

The nature of death can be considered a fundamentalist view that is separate from Creationism. If Martin Luther believed in a literal 'Creation Week' and a 'Global Flood' then he is a Creationist. Separate from that is exactly to what kind/level of literal, Bible inerrancy Luther may have subscribed.

After all, even Arminianism does not preclude one from being a Creationist. Jehovah's Witnesses are Creationists.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 03-16-2015 11:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Faith, posted 03-17-2015 2:02 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 715 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 143 of 1939 (753117)
03-17-2015 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by NoNukes
03-17-2015 1:18 AM


I didn't say he wasn't a creationist, what I said was that he shares KB's belief that it was natural for animals to die before the Fall, which makes him a different kind of creationist than the kind ThinAir was describing.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 144 of 1939 (753118)
03-17-2015 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by ThinAirDesigns
03-16-2015 9:18 PM


TAD writes:

The evidence simply doesn't support it and a few hundred years from now YEC will be considered the domain of the complete and total weirdos.

One thing to consider in your ponderings is that in its views on religion the USA is a massive outlier in the developed world for its fundamentalist religious views.

http://www.livescience.com/...tics-acceptance-evolution.html

In Europe YEC *is* the domain of total weirdos.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-16-2015 9:18 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 1644 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 145 of 1939 (753119)
03-17-2015 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
03-16-2015 11:31 PM


Faith writes:

You really should provide some quotes in evidence for all that.

Tell me what I said that you would like to see the evidence for and I'll provide the quotes. Are you doubting that the men I listed defended geocentricity on biblical grounds? That's an easy peasy slam dunk if that's your doubt.

But the really odd thing is that you have Martin Luther holding the creationist view he actually didn't hold, since he and kbertsche agree on death being natural to animals.

The REALLY odd thing is how you have me attributing a creationist position AT ALL to Martin Luther in my post. I didn't say a single thing about Martin Luther's position on creation -- not a single word.

JB

Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by NoNukes, posted 03-17-2015 9:43 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 1644 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 146 of 1939 (753120)
03-17-2015 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Tangle
03-17-2015 3:54 AM


Tangle writes:

In Europe YEC *is* the domain of total weirdos.

Good point.

JB


This message is a reply to:
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herebedragons
Member (Idle past 128 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 147 of 1939 (753122)
03-17-2015 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
03-16-2015 11:31 PM


TAD writes:

In their day and age, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Philipp Malanchthon, Bellermine and ALL the giants of Christianity believed and insisted that the earth sat unmoved and the heavens rotated around us. They declared those who disagreed to be apostate and even devil possessed. They claimed that if science and the bible contradicted, it wasn't the bible that was going to be altered because all science had to be measured against the bible. The verses proclaiming geocentricity were "divine evidence" and who has the authority to argue against the divine?

Faith writes:

You really should provide some quotes in evidence for all that.

I have provided you with quotes that are evidence of this (at least for Calvin and Luther) and wondered why you held beliefs (heliocentricism) that were contradictory to the Bible.

You just dismissed it. So what would be the point of Thin Air providing quotes?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 1644 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 148 of 1939 (753125)
03-17-2015 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by herebedragons
03-17-2015 7:40 AM


hbd writes:

I have provided you with quotes that are evidence of this (at least for Calvin and Luther) and wondered why you held beliefs (heliocentricism) that were contradictory to the Bible.

You just dismissed it.

She dismisses it? You can't be serious (though I'm not sure why I would think you aren't. LOL).

To deny that that the giants of Christianity had to be dragged into the truth of heliocentricity while kicking, screaming and judging from the open bible and the pulpit is as big of a denial as that of heliocentricity itself.

It's a human trait I guess -- we must deny our past mistakes in order to stand firm in our current ones.

JB


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by herebedragons, posted 03-17-2015 7:40 AM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 149 of 1939 (753127)
03-17-2015 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Faith
03-17-2015 2:02 AM


Death was the norm from the beginning and there ws no Biblical Fall
Faith writes:

I didn't say he wasn't a creationist, what I said was that he shares KB's belief that it was natural for animals to die before the Fall, which makes him a different kind of creationist than the kind ThinAir was describing.

Death was the norm for humans and animals from the beginning and there was no Biblical Fall unless the God found in Genesis 2&3 was a real fool. If death was not the norm then there was no reason for the existence of the Tree of Life.

Hide off topic response.

Edited by jar, : hide stuff


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Faith, posted 03-17-2015 2:02 AM Faith has taken no action

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 128 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 150 of 1939 (753128)
03-17-2015 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by ThinAirDesigns
03-17-2015 8:12 AM


It wasn't so much that she denied that they believed it, or that they had said those things but that there was any relevance to it.

The discussion was around here: Message 49

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-17-2015 8:12 AM ThinAirDesigns has taken no action

  
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