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Author Topic:   Evidence that the Great Unconformity did not Form Before the Strata above it
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 1939 (753307)
03-19-2015 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
03-18-2015 6:39 PM


Re: The Reformers on Science
I don't think any of the Biblical descriptions can be called "geocentrism" even if that's what people made of it in the early scientific age. It's just a perfectly natural description from the point of view of earthlings.

Actually you are wrong. The difference between stopping the sun from rotating around the earth, and stopping the earth from rotating on its axis produce different results that would easily be distinguished on earth; at least the could be distingushed by people with an understanding of physics. The Biblical description of the event is only equivalent to reality if those differences are ignored.

In short, it is pretty clear that the underlying picture of the universe expressed by the writer's was completely wrong. If everyone actually knew better at the time, then there would be no harm in expressing what actually happened.

Ptolemy and Aristotle, who also inspired way too much of their theology, are pagan thinkers they allowed to eclipse a strictly Biblical world view. Calvin and Luther also should have known better, but as I said, they too had been steeped in Catholicism.

Faith, what you write above is complete revisionist nonsense. First, there is no information in the Bible that would assist you in avoiding a geocentric view of the solar system. Accordingly, there is nothing Christian about the correct view nor is there anything particularly pagan about Ptolemy's view. To the contrary, there are plenty of hints in scripture that might well be interpreted as geocentric. Is it really pagan that scientific interpretations were rejected? Don't you reject scientific interpretations of how the grand canyon was formed despite the fact that the Bible does not provide any testimony on the subject? Is that somehow pagan?

And where did the correction away from geocentric thinking come from? Largely from Catholics and ex-Catholics.

As for Copernicus, he was as much a rebel from Romanism as the Reformers.

Cough. Cough. Evidence please.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 03-18-2015 6:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by kbertsche, posted 03-19-2015 10:59 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 181 by Faith, posted 03-19-2015 11:44 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 1939 (753361)
03-19-2015 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Faith
03-19-2015 11:44 AM


Re: The Reformers on Science
. He's not going to stop the earth and let us all fly off into space, so what He did remains a mystery.

So God can stop the earth but not people?

It is the problem with people 'flying off into space' that was an obstacle to people accepting that the earth moved in the first place. You are merely reinforcing the idea held by geocentrists.

Whatever he did, the action was not stopping the sun. That does not work.

If the Bible is merely describing what happened, "the sun stopped moving"

Sure. As long as accuracy is not important, then such phrasing is sufficient. Now where else might this principle be applied? Since we did not how Adam and Eve were created we might as well postulate special creation? Is that too far?

You are imputing WAY too much to the word "pagan," all it means is philosophies from outside the Bible. Ptolemy and Aristotle simply WERE literally pagans by that standard and their thinking was not biblical.

Ptolemy's view of the solar system is in no way incompatible with the Bible. In fact the Bible facially supports the view and does not refute it in any way. You are left with explaining away obvious references to geocentricity. But there is no way to actually do so. Bible cosmology is not just an earth centered solar system. It is an earth centered universe with a dome above the earth on which even the lesser lights traveled. If this is a pagan idea, it is one adopted in the Bible. Small wonder that Catholics, Protestants, and others adopted the same idea.

The main problem with the RCC is the papacy, and the official teachings that contradict the Bible

A geocentric solar system does not contradict the Bible. Perhaps it is the case that the Bible is consistent with a heliocentric universe, but that's far from clear and at any rate does not seem to be your argument.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Faith, posted 03-19-2015 11:44 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 1939 (753406)
03-19-2015 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Faith
03-19-2015 11:44 AM


Re: The Reformers on Science
All I meant was that he was a rebel against the Ptolemaic assumptions held by the RCC over the Bible, which I'd already said.

Ridiculous. The Protestants were no less geocentric than Catholics and the Bible does not dispute geocentric view points in any way. The few geocentrists you find around today are Protestants and Catholics who consider themselves to be Bible fundamentalists.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Faith, posted 03-19-2015 11:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Faith, posted 03-19-2015 10:45 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 198 of 1939 (753546)
03-20-2015 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Faith
03-19-2015 10:45 PM


Re: The Reformers on Science
NoNukes writes:

The few geocentrists you find around today are Protestants and Catholics who consider themselves to be Bible fundamentalists.

Yeh, so?

Yeah, so it supports my argument that geocentricism is not just Catholicism or Romanism or whatever you want to call it. People can and do reach that conclusion by reading the Bible, and it is highly likely that the Biblical writers also had the same view of the universe. Modern geoncentrists get to that conclusion despite the fact that they don't have Ptolemy's influence to blame and despite having all of modern science to draw on. They reach those conclusions because the universe 'looks' geocentric unless you look at it hard and because the Bible says the universe is geocentric. And by hard, I mean employing the science that was available at least by the 17th century. And some visual evidence (namely as the phases and sizes of Venus which cannot be explained using a geocentric model), has been visible to mankind for his entire history.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Faith, posted 03-19-2015 10:45 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 253 of 1939 (753768)
03-22-2015 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Faith
03-20-2015 3:14 AM


Re: The Reformers on Science
Yes, amen. But while that's true of the Bible's descriptions of the heavens, it's not true of its statements about the creation of life and the age of the earth, which limit science to those statements.

One thing we can say is that Christians are not of one mind about what you state here. Geocentrists would probably tell people who held your belief that they were letting science dictate their interpretation of the Bible, while people like me would insist that essentially none of the Bible is intended to teach science or mathematics.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Faith, posted 03-20-2015 3:14 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 794 of 1939 (754892)
04-01-2015 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 792 by Faith
04-01-2015 12:15 PM


Re: fantasy biology
OK, here's the problem. New subspecies or varieties or races are called "Species" today. They aren't, they are subspecies or varieties or races.

What's the essential difference between being of different species and being of different subspecies?

How about a shred of evidence for your assertion that modern taxonomy is completely wrong. What is it, other than support for your own position that indicates what you say is correct?

In short, what the heck do you know about biology?


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 792 by Faith, posted 04-01-2015 12:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 796 by Faith, posted 04-01-2015 1:10 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 1747 of 1939 (760705)
06-24-2015 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1746 by Faith
06-24-2015 8:21 AM


Re: sedimentation on slope
I'd suggest that if any youngsters are coming on that visit that you get them to help. Whatever the outcome, I'll bet that they'd love to help play in wet dirt.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1746 by Faith, posted 06-24-2015 8:21 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1748 by Faith, posted 06-25-2015 7:39 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1772 of 1939 (760988)
06-26-2015 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1748 by Faith
06-25-2015 7:39 AM


Re: sedimentation on slope
I knew we could find something we agree on!

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1748 by Faith, posted 06-25-2015 7:39 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1773 of 1939 (760989)
06-26-2015 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1756 by Faith
06-25-2015 10:05 PM


Re: sedimentation on slope
It is absurd to think any strata ever formed on a slope. Even if it's possible. Absurd.

Wow.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1756 by Faith, posted 06-25-2015 10:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1774 by Faith, posted 06-27-2015 1:11 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1775 of 1939 (760996)
06-27-2015 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1774 by Faith
06-27-2015 1:11 AM


Re: sedimentation on slope
The strata everywhere were clearly originally laid down horizontally.

Clearly, Faith says. I suppose that ends the discussion.

This is exhibit A illustrating why you should never be taken seriously. If I had to point to one or two sentences that point to why it is silly to discuss anything with you, I could pick them out of this exchange.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1774 by Faith, posted 06-27-2015 1:11 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1776 by Faith, posted 06-27-2015 3:00 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1777 of 1939 (761012)
06-27-2015 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1776 by Faith
06-27-2015 3:00 AM


Re: sedimentation on slope
The idea that any of the worldwide strata formed in any way other than horizontally is so utterly brand new and utterly bizarre I'm sure I've been transported into the twilight zone.

What world wide strata are you talking about anyway?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1776 by Faith, posted 06-27-2015 3:00 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1790 of 1939 (761043)
06-27-2015 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1762 by Faith
06-26-2015 8:13 AM


Re: sedimentation on slope
You have pretty much destroyed what was going to be a fun time with my family. I propose that YOU do the experiment and I'll do something else with my family.

Exactly whom do you think will be hurt by your choice to not perform the experiment?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1762 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 8:13 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1791 by JonF, posted 06-27-2015 1:32 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 1811 of 1939 (762075)
07-08-2015 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1810 by Admin
07-08-2015 9:52 AM


Re: Images from the Experiment
I give Faith an A for Effort. Hopefully Faith will provide whatever comments she is willing to share. I fully agree with your stance on private emails.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1810 by Admin, posted 07-08-2015 9:52 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1895 of 1939 (762724)
07-14-2015 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1890 by Admin
07-14-2015 8:02 PM


Re: Resuming Discussion
I'm going to disallow this argument because it makes no sense to say that buried layers were eroded.

I don't think she said this.

In the case of the exposure of a lower layer my guess would be that the layers above were eroded away due to the tectonic movement, j

I don't see any problem with saying that a lower level became exposed when the layers above it were eroded away. I have no idea if the 'science' offered here is correct, but I don't see a grammar problem.

Similarly, I am not quite sure whether it makes geological sense to say this happened to the layers 'above the Kaibab in the Grand Canyon area', but if the thread has changed from offering evidence to make stuff up and asking others to disprove it, then surely it should be okay to offer this explanation.

If we're going to have a discussion about Flood geology it is certainly going to include some nonsense. But some of that is just bad science that those with geology training might be able to sort out.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1890 by Admin, posted 07-14-2015 8:02 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1930 of 1939 (762977)
07-18-2015 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1929 by Faith
07-18-2015 10:15 PM


Re: Faith Suspended 24 hours
Asking for evidence for something I've been acquainted with for all of a few hours is rather beyond beyond.

Wrong Faith. The solution to your seemingly intractable problem is that you just take all the time you need. If a few hours is not enough time, then take more time.

But asking for evidence is never beyond the scope here.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1929 by Faith, posted 07-18-2015 10:15 PM Faith has not replied

  
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