Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8925 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-21-2019 7:51 AM
38 online now:
JoeT, RAZD, vimesey (3 members, 35 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Jedothek
Post Volume:
Total: 860,160 Year: 15,196/19,786 Month: 1,919/3,058 Week: 293/404 Day: 11/96 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1718
19
2021
...
28Next
Author Topic:   Origin of the Flood Layers
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 602 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 271 of 409 (753337)
03-19-2015 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Faith
03-19-2015 10:43 AM


Faith writes:

Let me see if I can be clearer: the definitions seem artificial and illogical. Something you use to label a formation but without any clear reason why you are doing so.

The reason couldn't be more clear or logical.

Let's pretend for a moment that we occasionally saw a strange phenomenon in the way light dispersed into a rainbow (pardon if I'm not perfect in my term usage here). For some strange reason we see a rainbow with a few missing colors (say orange, yellow and green).

If we applied the geological term "unconformity" to this situation, it would be the contact point between the Red and the Blue. In other words, it's the point where two things meet that would not normally ever meet each other.

And someone please correct me if I'm wrong - I'm new.

JB


This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 03-19-2015 10:43 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 03-19-2015 12:06 PM ThinAirDesigns has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5343
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 272 of 409 (753338)
03-19-2015 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Admin
03-19-2015 8:02 AM


Looks as if the schists image originates at Earthly Musings: Seven Days of Geology and Hiking on the Colorado River in Grand Canyon, about 2/3 of the way down the page, captioned "Close-up of The Great Unconformity with Vishnu Schist below and Tapeats Sandstone above. Quartz clasts rest right at the surface of the unconformity, which represents 1,200 million years of time. Note the small dendrites that seem to emerge from the quartz clasts on their top side"

He also shows a similar picture:


"A small scale channel within the Tapeats Sandstone just above the unconformity. These channels were likely cut as the waves of the Tapeats Sea washed back across the surface."

From Written in Stone:


"We are viewing the Great Unconformity at arm’s length within Blacktail Canyon. Blacktail is a popular locale for literally touching the Great Unconformity in the serene setting of a beautiful side canyon. The regional westard dip in the strata has caused the Tapeats Sandstone to descend back down to river level making the details of the Great Unconformity well exposed to view along the river-polished walls of the canyon. In addition, Blacktail Canyon has a great little echo, and if you're really quiet, you can still hear the waves of the advancing Cambrian sea crashing onto the shore as it churns up loose chunks of granite and schist.

According to the geological Principle of Inclusions, clasts are older than the rock in which they are contained. Notice the “loose” fragments of Zoroaster pegmatite from the underlying Grand Canyon Metamorphic Suite incorporated within the contact below the basal-most Tapeats Sandstone. Inclusions can often be utilized to recognize a nonconformity such as this."

From Fossils and Geology:


"Great unconformity (black tail canyon, AZ) between the Vishnu schist (below) and the tapeats sandstone (above). The missing time is about 1100 million years."

{ABE} I sure don't see any way to interpret this as a fluid sandstone [sic] flowing across and stopping at the Vishnu. Pretty obviously both were eroded to expose this cross-section. Note the clasts in the sandstone.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Admin, posted 03-19-2015 8:02 AM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Faith, posted 03-19-2015 12:40 PM JonF has responded
 Message 297 by edge, posted 03-19-2015 2:55 PM JonF has responded
 Message 323 by Admin, posted 03-20-2015 9:21 AM JonF has responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 273 of 409 (753339)
03-19-2015 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Faith
03-19-2015 11:10 AM


That's what it looks like. It looks like a thickly fluid sand{stone} flowed across the Vishnu schist and then ran out of material, came to its end, no more wet fluid pre-sandstone.

So, you are saying that the Tapeats Sandstone just ended right at this point? That's fortuitous.

Like icing on a cake that runs out before you've covered the cake (and that's a good analogy too since if you aren't very careful the icing will pick up chunks of cake and soon be a complete mess), It looks far more like this than it looks like it was eroded back from the schist, IMHO. If you look at the photos I've marked you should at least see what I'm seeing. And I ask you again to please mark a photo yourself so I can see what you are seeing in it.

It's not obvious to me, nor probably anyone else. And I'm not sure what I can annotate to make it clearer. There is a bedding plane cutting diagonally across the upper third of the photo. I fail to see how this would be preserved in a viscous flow model.

What would be wrong with just having sand deposited on top of some pebbles sitting on the Vishnu?

Do you realize that if this was the end of the Tapeats, then the next layer being deposited on the Vishnu as shown would indicate another unconformity?

I've marked the edges of the depressions in the Vishnu which fit the shapes of the quartz stuck in the sandstone. In other words, no erosion had to occur to expose that quartz, that's just the way it was embedded in the Vishnu in the first place:

That is not what the evidence shows. You have seen a picture of how the quartz/pegmatites actually occur in their original setting. The do not look like clasts laying on a surface composed of Vishnu Schist.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Faith, posted 03-19-2015 11:10 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Faith, posted 03-19-2015 12:56 PM edge has not yet responded
 Message 284 by Faith, posted 03-19-2015 12:56 PM edge has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5343
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 274 of 409 (753340)
03-19-2015 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Faith
03-19-2015 9:11 AM


I keep seeing it as having stopped rather than having been eroded away to that point because the vertical "edge" is so smooth for one thing.

You call that smooth?

Sandstone doesn't flow. Something in the process of lithification might but it sure seems unlikely that it would be just soft enough to flow and just hard enough to hold a near-vertical edge and just happened to stop right there.

However, erosion of sandstone more than the underlying harder rock is a perfectly reasonable explanation. Especially see the last picture I posted above. Note the clasts and explain how that all formed.

At first I did, but as I kept analyzing the situation I noticed the apparent fit of the clasts in the depression right below them. How they fit is what the yellow lines I drew on the latest photo were meant to show.

I don't see any depressions. I see dark shadows of the clasts.

and if that's the case then the sandstone itself pulled them out

Wow, maybe we should be using unpowered sandstone instead of electrically powered vacuum cleaners. Apparently sandstone has undetected but exremely powerful suction. Who knew?

Seriously, pulled out? Really? What generated that puling force?

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Faith, posted 03-19-2015 9:11 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Faith, posted 03-19-2015 12:30 PM JonF has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32700
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 275 of 409 (753348)
03-19-2015 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by edge
03-19-2015 11:22 AM


Yes, the colors are enhanced. The true colors are shown in the photographs that I located on line.

OK but that leaves the striping, which is pretty unusual whatever their colors. Where else does that phenomenon appear? Perhaps it does somewhere but that formation in China hit me like something from another planet when I first saw it and I've still not seen anything comparable anywhere else. You said something about photos from Mexico though -- perhaps something similar there?

AND the main thing about the formation in relation to what I've been saying isn't the color anyway but the way the sandstone looks like it was squeezed out of a tube. Nobody ever talks about sandstone as having a viscous quality at any stage of wetness that I know of, but both the Chinese formation and that picture of the Tapeats with the quartz chunks stuck in it suggest something along those lines. So does The Wave, but that's the only other one I can think of.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by edge, posted 03-19-2015 11:22 AM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by edge, posted 03-19-2015 1:55 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32700
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 276 of 409 (753353)
03-19-2015 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by ThinAirDesigns
03-19-2015 11:22 AM


Yes, but that is exactly what is artificial to me. The Old Earth theory is so taken for granted they treat it as equivalent to the spectrum of colors, where of course we know if a color is missing because we know the spectrum is universal.

But it is only theory that says there is a layer missing from the strata, it's all a mental construct invented to accommodate the Old Earth. There are other ways to explain the erosion, it is not the inescapable evidence imputed to it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-19-2015 11:22 AM ThinAirDesigns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by jar, posted 03-19-2015 12:15 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 279 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-19-2015 12:38 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 277 of 409 (753359)
03-19-2015 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Faith
03-19-2015 12:06 PM


Faith's magic mountains
Faith writes:

But it is only theory that says there is a layer missing from the strata, it's all a mental construct invented to accommodate the Old Earth. There are other ways to explain the erosion, it is not the inescapable evidence imputed to it.

No, it is not a theory that says there is a layer missing, it is fact. You have been shown that fact.

And you have never presented a model, method, mechanism, process or procedure to explain how the material could have been removed other than by being exposed at the surface and eroded away.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 03-19-2015 12:06 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32700
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 278 of 409 (753360)
03-19-2015 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by JonF
03-19-2015 11:43 AM


You call that smooth?

What are you looking at? The vertical frontal edge of the sandstone that I've outlined looks pretty smooth to me, as opposed to being at all ragged from erosion.

Sandstone doesn't flow. Something in the process of lithification might but it sure seems unlikely that it would be just soft enough to flow and just hard enough to hold a near-vertical edge and just happened to stop right there.

But what is so special about "right there?" You mean that trench I've identified as the source of the quartz chunks? If that's all it is there is no "right there" about it, it's just one of many veins of quartz that happened to be under the forward edge of the Tapeats when it ran out of material.

I wouldn't have expected sandstone to have a viscous stage either, but this photo and the one of the Danxia formation in China certainly suggest something of the sort. Something that occurs during its laying down as a wet sediment, not during lithification.

However, erosion of sandstone more than the underlying harder rock is a perfectly reasonable explanation. Especially see the last picture I posted above. Note the clasts and explain how that all formed.

I wasn't clear what you were seeing in that photo, perhaps you could mark it to bring out what you see there? But I'll get back to that post in a minute.

Close-up of The Great Unconformity with Vishnu Schist below and Tapeats Sandstone above. Quartz clasts rest right at the surface of the unconformity, which represents 1,200 million years of time. Note the small dendrtites that seem to emerge from the quartz clasts on their top side.

Well that proves it's quartz I guess, which is what it looks like.

But I don't see the quartz chunks as "resting" at all. They appear to be stuck in the sandstone, suspended above this depression or trench where it looks to me they were formerly embedded.

[qs] At first I did, but as I kept analyzing the situation I noticed the apparent fit of the clasts in the depression right below them. How they fit is what the yellow lines I drew on the latest photo were meant to show.

I don't see any depressions. I see dark shadows of the clasts.

Look at the forground edge of the "shadow," that's the edge of a depression, it's not a shadow. Also, it is so dark because it's a depression. Wish there was some way to verify this.

and if that's the case then the sandstone itself pulled them out

Wow, maybe we should be using unpowered sandstone instead of electrically powered vacuum cleaners. Apparently sandstone has undetected but exremely powerful suction. Who knew?
Seriously, pulled out? Really? What generated that puling force?

Something to do with the relative looseness of the quartz and the relative stickiness of the sandstone and the dryness and hardness of the schist.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by JonF, posted 03-19-2015 11:43 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by JonF, posted 03-19-2015 1:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 602 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 279 of 409 (753362)
03-19-2015 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Faith
03-19-2015 12:06 PM


Faith writes:

But it is only theory that says there is a layer missing from the strata, it's all a mental construct invented to accommodate the Old Earth.

And that's where you'd be wrong.

Just as the colors of the rainbow are established and identifiable, so are the layers of the earth. Methods of identification are numerous, broad, independent and consistent. The original methods were simple enough that they were developed and done near two centuries ago (by YECs). In the time since, the methods have become more and more detailed, precise and most importantly convergent.

Perhaps a course on how in any field, converging lines of evidence lead to the truth.

It works.

JB


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 03-19-2015 12:06 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Faith, posted 03-19-2015 12:43 PM ThinAirDesigns has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32700
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 280 of 409 (753364)
03-19-2015 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by JonF
03-19-2015 11:28 AM


Looks as if the schists image originates at Earthly Musings: Seven Days of Geology and Hiking on the Colorado River in Grand Canyon, about 2/3 of the way down the page, captioned "Close-up of The Great Unconformity with Vishnu Schist below and Tapeats Sandstone above. Quartz clasts rest right at the surface of the unconformity, which represents 1,200 million years of time. Note the small dendrites that seem to emerge from the quartz clasts on their top side"

Yes I already commented on this. I guess if he took the picture then he knows that they are resting right on the surface of the Vishnu, but that does not look like a shadow in the picture to me, it looks like the edge of a depression. Maybe the depression is shallower than it looks, but I can't see it as a mere shadow.

The other picture that shows large clasts also shows them embedded in the sandstone.

You'd need to explain the other pictures more, perhaps mark them to indicate what the descriptions refer to because it isn't obvious to me, and I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with them anyway.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by JonF, posted 03-19-2015 11:28 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by JonF, posted 03-19-2015 2:15 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32700
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 281 of 409 (753366)
03-19-2015 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by ThinAirDesigns
03-19-2015 12:38 PM


But it is only theory that says there is a layer missing from the strata, it's all a mental construct invented to accommodate the Old Earth.

And that's where you'd be wrong.

Just as the colors of the rainbow are established and identifiable, so are the layers of the earth. Methods of identification are numerous, broad, independent and consistent. The original methods were simple enough that they were developed and done near two centuries ago (by YECs). In the time since, the methods have become more and more detailed, precise and most importantly convergent.

Perhaps a course on how in any field, converging lines of evidence lead to the truth.

It works.

JB

Well, you're good at spieling the party line.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-19-2015 12:38 PM ThinAirDesigns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-19-2015 12:51 PM Faith has responded
 Message 326 by Admin, posted 03-20-2015 9:38 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 602 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 282 of 409 (753368)
03-19-2015 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Faith
03-19-2015 12:43 PM


Faith writes:

Well, you're good at spieling the party line.

Turns out what I'm good at is examining, evaluating and appreciating converging lines of evidence.

It works.

JB


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Faith, posted 03-19-2015 12:43 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Faith, posted 03-19-2015 12:58 PM ThinAirDesigns has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32700
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 283 of 409 (753369)
03-19-2015 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by edge
03-19-2015 11:36 AM


duplicate

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by edge, posted 03-19-2015 11:36 AM edge has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32700
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 284 of 409 (753370)
03-19-2015 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by edge
03-19-2015 11:36 AM


That's what it looks like. It looks like a thickly fluid sand{stone} flowed across the Vishnu schist and then ran out of material, came to its end, no more wet fluid pre-sandstone.

So, you are saying that the Tapeats Sandstone just ended right at this point? That's fortuitous.

Would somebody please explain the significance of "this point?" All I see is a trench left after the vein of quartz was removed from it. That's how it LOOKS to me. It still looks that way. Somebody will have to show clearly that it's better explained some other way, and probably show me on the photo itself.

Like icing on a cake that runs out before you've covered the cake (and that's a good analogy too since if you aren't very careful the icing will pick up chunks of cake and soon be a complete mess), It looks far more like this than it looks like it was eroded back from the schist, IMHO. If you look at the photos I've marked you should at least see what I'm seeing. And I ask you again to please mark a photo yourself so I can see what you are seeing in it.

It's not obvious to me, nor probably anyone else. And I'm not sure what I can annotate to make it clearer. There is a bedding plane cutting diagonally across the upper third of the photo. I fail to see how this would be preserved in a viscous flow model.

OK, that's something to wonder about. But what, in your opinion, explains that vertical edge of the sandstone in which the quartz is stuck? The one I outlined in yellow a while back.

ABE: Since I would really like to know what you think of that vertical edge, here's the picture again:

What would be wrong with just having sand deposited on top of some pebbles sitting on the Vishnu?

All I can say is that it just doesn't LOOK LIKE that to me. The "pebbles" don't look like they are sitting, they look like they are stuck in the sandstone and suspended above a depression out of which they came.

Do you realize that if this was the end of the Tapeats, then the next layer being deposited on the Vishnu as shown would indicate another unconformity?

No comprendo Senor.

I've marked the edges of the depressions in the Vishnu which fit the shapes of the quartz stuck in the sandstone. In other words, no erosion had to occur to expose that quartz, that's just the way it was embedded in the Vishnu in the first place:

That is not what the evidence shows.

That's what the evidence I just gave you shows until something shows me I'm misreading it.

You have seen a picture of how the quartz/pegmatites actually occur in their original setting. The do not look like clasts laying on a surface composed of Vishnu Schist.

If you are talking about the picture in Message 247, no, they look like veins of quartz in a wall of schist. If something caused the quartz to come out of their veins then they might look like clasts either lying on the schist or stuck in sandstone and not lying on anything.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by edge, posted 03-19-2015 11:36 AM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by edge, posted 03-19-2015 2:16 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 331 by Admin, posted 03-20-2015 10:02 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32700
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 285 of 409 (753371)
03-19-2015 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by ThinAirDesigns
03-19-2015 12:51 PM


Turns out what I'm good at is examining, evaluating and appreciating converging lines of evidence.

Yup, very adept at spieling the party line.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-19-2015 12:51 PM ThinAirDesigns has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by Admin, posted 03-20-2015 10:07 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
RewPrev1
...
1718
19
2021
...
28Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019