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Author Topic:   Origin of the Flood Layers
Minnemooseus
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From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
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Message 316 of 409 (753456)
03-20-2015 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by Faith
03-20-2015 1:24 AM


Before the cutting of the Grand Canyon started there was...
What was the nature of the statigraphy before the start of the cutting of the Grand Canyon?

Wasn't it something like this (below), minus the V shaped notch that is the Grand Canyon?

(pulled this graphic from here)

Wasn't the Vishnu Schist covered by the Tapeats Sandstone, in the areas without the angular preCambrian sediments?

You make it sound like all those sediments were piled up, except for the open volume of the canyon. That the canyon wasn't cut by erosion, but rather it's there because of non-depositon of sediments.

Moose


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Faith
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Posts: 32691
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 317 of 409 (753457)
03-20-2015 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by Minnemooseus
03-20-2015 2:09 AM


Re: Before the cutting of the Grand Canyon started there was...
No, I just didn't register HBD's point. He switched from subject to subject ignoring all the effort I'd put into trying to get across my view of that photo and I'm afraid I gave some of his post rather short shrift. I didn't get what he was saying and didn't want to be dragged from pillar to post any more which is what it seemed he was doing.

Of course the canyon was cut into the stack of strata. On my Floodist time scale I've guessed that it was caused by the uplift that's right over the angular unconformity soon after all the strata were laid down all the way up to the top of the Grand Staircase.

And yes from the cross section it certainly looks like the Vishnu was directly covered by the Tapeats sandstone where the Supergroup for whatever reason had been displaced. I mentioned that in a post recently I thought.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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herebedragons
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Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 318 of 409 (753462)
03-20-2015 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Faith
03-20-2015 3:10 AM


Re: Before the cutting of the Grand Canyon started there was...
He switched from subject to subject ignoring all the effort I'd put into trying to get across my view of that photo and I'm afraid I gave some of his post rather short shrift. I didn't get what he was saying and didn't want to be dragged from pillar to post any more which is what it seemed he was doing.

Don't you dare blame this nonsense on me. You are so desperate to explain away anything that seems even remotely "Old Earthy" that you are willing to make up all kinds of silliness. I addressed just a couple of very simple, seemingly obvious and closely related points: where that picture was located within the canyon, that it did, in fact, at one time, have thousands of feet of sediment covering it, and that it was subsequently exposed by erosion. That's it - and that's the "Old Earth party line?"

I can't argue with what the picture looks like to you... it looks like whatever it looks like. It may indeed look to you like it was never buried, but we know it was. I said absolutely NOTHING about age of the formation or the amount of time it took to erode it. I try to keep my focus on the relative order of things and the processes involved.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


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Admin
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Message 319 of 409 (753463)
03-20-2015 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Dr Adequate
03-19-2015 8:23 PM


Moderator Concern
This is not on topic:

Dr Adequate writes:

This piece of clothing made me think of Faith ...

Please refrain from any comments of a personal nature. Humor is fine, but not at anyone else's expense.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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JonF
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Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 320 of 409 (753464)
03-20-2015 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Faith
03-19-2015 10:08 PM


Because it LOOKS like it was thick when laid down, and the thick edge with the clasts stuck in it, which is clearly vertical as shown by the shadow on it, doesn't LOOK to me like it was eroded, though JonF keeps insisting it does to him, and also because of the way the clasts seem to me to have come out of the depression in front of them. It's possible the appearance of thickness came as the sand was lithifying, after pulling the clasts out of their seat in the Vishnu I guess. That's the only other possibility I can see.

"Pulling the clasts out of their seat in the Vishnu".

Rock or slurry or intermediate doesn't lift rocks out of depressions. Don't happen. Ever. Even if he \rock/slurry/intermediate is magic.

You've been given an alternative explanation that, unlike yours, is consistent with reality. You've rejected it solely because you don't like it.

Sorry to say but neither JonF nor edge seems to be able to read how light and shadow define three dimensional forms, but it happens to be one thing I'm pretty good at. I'm also usually pretty good at spatial relationships.

I'm fantastic at light and shadow and spatial relationships. I spent twenty years doing 3D CAD models and photorealistic renderings with ray tracing programs adjusting light source positions and intensities to get the desired effects. I know my stuff in this area.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


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JonF
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Message 321 of 409 (753465)
03-20-2015 8:32 AM



  
Admin
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From: EvC Forum
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Message 322 of 409 (753469)
03-20-2015 8:49 AM


Let's Move Forward
I'm sorry to see the latest posts. I know the discussion was more wide-ranging than this, but here are a couple photos that when shown together may help discussion constructively resume. This is the familiar picture of where the closeup of the clasts was taken. The clasts themselves are outlined in yellow:

And here is the closeup of the clasts:

These clasts are the exact same clasts shown outlined in yellow in the first photo. Viewing these images together should help resolve the differences of opinion about certain details, such as whether the Vishnu is a vertical surface or not, but also other details.

Edited by Admin, : Grammar.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Admin
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Message 323 of 409 (753470)
03-20-2015 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by JonF
03-19-2015 11:28 AM


As I read through the messages since yesterday morning I'll call attention to those parts that I found difficult to understand. Here's one:

"According to the geological Principle of Inclusions, clasts are older than the rock in which they are contained. Notice the “loose” fragments of Zoroaster pegmatite from the underlying Grand Canyon Metamorphic Suite incorporated within the contact below the basal-most Tapeats Sandstone. Inclusions can often be utilized to recognize a nonconformity such as this."

You're quoting from Written in Stone about 60% down the page. Assuming you quoted this because it was important to your point, there's a great deal where clarification or explanation would be extremely helpful, and how much depends upon your audience. It might not be obvious at first thought to many (even though it couldn't be any other way) that clasts must be older than the rock containing them. Even if it's already been mentioned that the Zoroaster granite is part of the Vishnu Schist, it bears mentioning again. Many people might not be aware that pegmatite is a type of granite. I don't recall seeing the term "Grand Canyon Metamorphic Suite" here before, I'm guessing it's another way of referring to the basement rocks beneath the Grand Canyon layers and the supergroup layers, but a definition might be helpful. And not everyone may be familiar with the word basal.

AbE: I'm commenting on your own AbE:

{ABE} I sure don't see any way to interpret this as a fluid sandstone [sic] flowing across and stopping at the Vishnu. Pretty obviously both were eroded to expose this cross-section. Note the clasts in the sandstone.

The smooth upper surface of the Tapeats does give it the appearance of having been a liquid that flowed into place. Explaining what caused that surface to be so smooth would be helpful. My own guess is that it was once part of the riverbed and was eroded smooth. It might be worth mentioning that if the Tapeats had once been so hot to have been a liquid that it would then be metamorphic rock, which it definitely is not.

Edited by Admin, : AbE.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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jar
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Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 324 of 409 (753471)
03-20-2015 9:33 AM


Moving forward.
So far all of the evidence presented seems to show that the Vishnu Schist exists, that the Super Group Layers exist and that the Tapeats Sandstone exists.

The question is "What was the origin, the process, the model, the method, the procedure, the mechanism that explains their origin?"

The conventional model for making schist involved compacting minerals at very high temperatures and pressures that align at least 50% of the mineral grains into thin layers. Most schists are made from clays and muds which means that they are the product of long term weathering and filtering. Schist is a Metamorphic rock.

Sandstone though is a sedimentary rock. They are made from cemented crystals of minerals or weathered rocks. The process involves laying down a layer of sand which then gets covered in turn, compacted and cemented by water and mineral precipitation. So three major steps are needed, first making, transporting and depositing the sand; then covering the sand by some other layer and finally the precipitation of minerals to cement the particles together.

To make this simple, let's ignore the Super Group and all the layers above the Tapeats Sandstone for the moment (but we will have to return to explain their existence) and simply look for a model that could create the Vishnu Schist and Tapeats Sandstone in only 6000 years or that might involve a flood.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Faith
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Posts: 32691
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 325 of 409 (753473)
03-20-2015 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Admin
03-20-2015 8:49 AM


Re: Let's Move Forward
THAT is hilarious! I had no idea that picture contained the other picture. What a difference scale makes! There was no way to tell from the single photo how big the clasts were, if they'd fit in a human hand or really were "boulders" as edge called them.

It did occur to me that the grains in the sandstone were rather large but I didn't spend enough time thinking about that; I really thought I was looking at an area of landscape, not a tiny little space with clasts the size of small pebbles. And that ridge behind the clasts is not a "bedding plane" either as edge called it.

The only interpretation I'm not going to give up yet is that it still looks like those little clasts do fit in the depression in front of them, only now it looks like it could be the schist that shrank away from them. But I'm not interested in arguing about it.


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Admin
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From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 326 of 409 (753474)
03-20-2015 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Faith
03-19-2015 12:43 PM


Moderator Concern
Faith writes:

Well, you're good at spieling the party line.

In the midst of an actual response editorial comments are fine, but as the sole content not so much.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Faith
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Posts: 32691
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 327 of 409 (753477)
03-20-2015 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by jar
03-20-2015 9:33 AM


Formation of schist etc.
I'm not sure this is the direction this thread should go at this point, but I'll give my usual thoughts on these things.

The conventional model for making schist involved compacting minerals at very high temperatures and pressures that align at least 50% of the mineral grains into thin layers. Most schists are made from clays and muds which means that they are the product of long term weathering and filtering. Schist is a Metamorphic rock.

The Vishnu schist is composed of quite a collection of different rocks according to something I read and posted on here briefly quite a ways back. I've suggested it must be composed of some of the rubble from the Supergroup when it was pushed into its tilted form, but others answered, on another thread a long time ago now, that it doesn't contain the same rocks as the Supergroup. However, the source I just mentioned, which I might be able to find, suggests there are enough different rocks represented in it to make that a question. The dating of the rocks also raises questions, but I'm still thinking along these lines nevertheless.

Sandstone though is a sedimentary rock. They are made from cemented crystals of minerals or weathered rocks. The process involves laying down a layer of sand which then gets covered in turn, compacted and cemented by water and mineral precipitation. So three major steps are needed, first making, transporting and depositing the sand; then covering the sand by some other layer and finally the precipitation of minerals to cement the particles together.

I don't think we need this basic description at this point; lithification has been discussed many times elsewhere.

To make this simple, let's ignore the Super Group and all the layers above the Tapeats Sandstone for the moment (but we will have to return to explain their existence) and simply look for a model that could create the Vishnu Schist and Tapeats Sandstone in only 6000 years or that might involve a flood.

I still have the idea that the pressure that pushed up the Kaibab uplift also broke and tilted the Supergroup and pushed blocks of it up into the bottom of the Tapeats which was already the lowest layer in a stack of layers three miles deep. The weight of that stack resisted the pressure from below, probably tectonic in origin, contributing to the tilting of the Supergroup and probably causing it to slide some distance under the Tapeats as well. And somewhere in that same time period the magma from below was released that you can see represented in the granite fingers that penetrate into the schist, which then developed from that heat plus the pressure between the tectonic force and the weight of the stack above. With all that going on I don't think any great amount of time was needed to do all these things, weeks maybe, months to metamorphose the rock that became the schist, maybe months or years to cool the magma to granite, VERY short time to uplift the whole stack and tilt the Supergroup up against it etc..

No Flood involved in creating any of this unless perhaps it contributed to the cooling, and no 6000 years needed either. I think of all this as occurring in the last stage of the Flood when the water was receding, because receding Flood water seems to me to be the best explanation for how the strata broke up over the Permian/Kaibab, under the stress caused by the Kaibab uplift, carving the Grand Staircase and most likely the Grand Canyon as well.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : typo

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 328 of 409 (753479)
03-20-2015 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by Faith
03-20-2015 9:56 AM


Re: Formation of schist etc.
But Faith, you still have not presented a model. Let's try baby steps.

How was the material (clays and mud) that make up the Vishnu Schist created?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Faith
Member
Posts: 32691
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 329 of 409 (753481)
03-20-2015 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by Admin
03-20-2015 9:21 AM


The smooth upper surface of the Tapeats does give it the appearance of having been a liquid that flowed into place. Explaining what caused that surface to be so smooth would be helpful.

I don't know but the tiny scale of that picture may not give an accurate impression of the sandstone in general.

. It might be worth mentioning that if the Tapeats had once been so hot to have been a liquid that it would then be metamorphic rock, which it definitely is not.

When I speak of it as liquid I'm thinking of the idea that it was deposited in water, which fits both the Flood scenario and Old Earth descriptions of how most of the layers were deposited.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 32691
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 330 of 409 (753482)
03-20-2015 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 328 by jar
03-20-2015 9:59 AM


Re: Formation of schist etc.
Not interested in getting into that right now. If you want to start a thread on designing a model for the Flood MAYBE I'll post there.
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