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Author Topic:   Origin of the Flood Layers
Faith
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Posts: 35119
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 359 of 409 (753528)
03-20-2015 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by JonF
03-20-2015 12:14 PM


Look, I'd be happy enough if it was as shallow as you say because finding out the tiny scale of the image changed most of my view of it.

HOWEVER, as I analyze even your lightened version I still think that's a depression the clasts came out of. That IS the physical edge of a depression, not just the edge of the shadow that was originally there. The clasts still appear to be suspended above the depression. The lightened area where the shadow was is the schist at the bottom of the depression, it is not continuous with the surface.

The lightened area is red on your image, and the edge, which I've marked in blue on my own copy of the image, is the color of the schist. The remaining shadow that is still visible under the clasts indicates that they are suspended over the depression.

Here's yours followed by mine:

ABE: This is a corrected version. The first one had the edge marked wrong on the bottom left, so I redid it.

ABE: Here's Percy's marked image for reference to how far the surface edge extends on the left, which I marked wrong the first time.

More I look at it the more I see the depression still where I first saw it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 356 by JonF, posted 03-20-2015 12:14 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by JonF, posted 03-20-2015 1:52 PM Faith has responded
 Message 361 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 1:52 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35119
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 369 of 409 (753580)
03-20-2015 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by edge
03-20-2015 1:52 PM


You may want to do this search, but I'm going to abstain for the time being (likely a very long time).

Not much point in my sticking around either. When an argument is about an observation it helps to have others see the same thing along with you and I'm always just one against many.

In the meantime, could you explain why we do not have these veins or dikes in the Tapeats?

Takes heat and pressure I would expect, plus the fact that schist is made up of many rocks and minerals including those that form quartz or pegmatite veins.


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 Message 361 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 1:52 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 7:51 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35119
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 371 of 409 (753583)
03-20-2015 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by edge
03-20-2015 7:51 PM


Heat and pressure does it for me.

And no, I'm seeing the clasts and the depression correctly, you aren't.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 7:51 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 8:04 PM Faith has responded
 Message 373 by jar, posted 03-20-2015 8:06 PM Faith has responded
 Message 397 by JonF, posted 03-21-2015 8:48 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35119
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 374 of 409 (753590)
03-20-2015 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by edge
03-20-2015 8:04 PM


One of the many difficulties of trying to have a discussion with you is that you NEVER read in context. Heat and pressure does it for me without the factor of great age, about which you had just asked me. Does that clarify or do I need to copy out every quote, even the most recent? I guess I could do that but since this is only one of many difficulties I don't expect it to be worth the time anyway.

You don't even know what I think about the depressions. I've been careful about that...

OK, but didn't you just respond to JonF by suggesting that the material in the depression / shadow is not schist?

And please make something else clear: You called the clasts "boulders" at one time, and referred to that little ridge in the Tapeats as a "bedding plane." Did you see Percy's post since then that showed the area of this photo to cover about twenty 100 square inches? ABE: About nine by twelve or so, judging by the size of the woman's hand in Message 322 ./ABE

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 372 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 8:04 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 10:38 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35119
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 375 of 409 (753591)
03-20-2015 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by jar
03-20-2015 8:06 PM


Re: how do you make heat and pressure?
I explained the heat and pressure back in that lengthy description I gave of the scenario I have in mind that Percy suggested you should take as my model.

As for the question about the laying down of different sediments let's not change the subject, OK?


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 Message 373 by jar, posted 03-20-2015 8:06 PM jar has responded

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 Message 377 by jar, posted 03-20-2015 10:08 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35119
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 376 of 409 (753593)
03-20-2015 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by JonF
03-20-2015 1:52 PM


HOWEVER, as I analyze even your lightened version I still think that's a depression the clasts came out of. That IS the physical edge of a depression, not just the edge of the shadow that was originally there.

It's the edge of the shadow that was originally there. It's the boundary between the un-lightened and lightened version.

No it certainly is not, it's a physical edge. The edge even has a slight bevel to it, and the inner border is way too sharp to be a shadow. Also that shadow is just way too dark, showing no features at all of the supposed surface that would have to be there. Yet even the vertical edge the clasts are stuck in, which is in shadow itself, is so light it would reflect light enough to pick up features in that dark shadow even in the original photo, if it really was a shadow on the same level, but that is not the case. All this is so obvious I see I can't trust anything you say about a photo image.

Then tyou go on to outline in green a part of the higher surface on the bottom left along with the lower shadow in the depression, claiming they are on the same surface. Sheesh, this is ridiculous.

ABE: Your marked photo for reference:

]

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 360 by JonF, posted 03-20-2015 1:52 PM JonF has responded

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Faith
Member
Posts: 35119
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 378 of 409 (753595)
03-20-2015 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 377 by jar
03-20-2015 10:08 PM


Re: how do you make heat and pressure?
The Vishnu does not have to have existed AS SCHIST before the magma intrusions, just as rock rubble the magma plus weight from above then metamorphosed into schist.

You refuted nothing. In your dreams.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 377 by jar, posted 03-20-2015 10:08 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by jar, posted 03-20-2015 10:45 PM Faith has responded
 Message 382 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 10:55 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35119
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 381 of 409 (753601)
03-20-2015 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by edge
03-20-2015 10:38 PM


One of the many difficulties of trying to have a discussion with you is that you NEVER read in context. Heat and pressure does it for me without the factor of great age, about which you had just asked me. Does that clarify or do I need to copy out every quote, even the most recent? I guess I could do that but since this is only one of many difficulties I don't expect it to be worth the time anyway.

Have you been a complainer all of your life?

Not at all. I never had much to complain about until I came to EvC.

All I wanted some clarification.

But why would you need it with the question right there that I was answering?

OK, but didn't you just respond to JonF by suggesting that the material in the depression / shadow is not schist?

I'm pretty sure that it's not just air. Whatever it is, it appears to have a laminated fabric not related to the original schist. However, I think it was derived from the schist. What do you think it is?

I think it is schist. The lightening of the image made the whole area of that dark shadow reddish and not a whole lot easier to read than the original. No idea where you get the "laminated" idea.

And please make something else clear: You called the clasts "boulders" at one time, ...

I probably misspoke. I had been looking at some images on line where there were some fairly large boulders in a sandstone above an unconformity. My error, however, such things do exist.

Yes, in fact there is a boulder of quartzite about fifteen feet in diameter embedded in the Tapeats elsewhere in the canyon, above the unconformity, that clearly broke off the Shinumo quartzite of the Supergroup, and that's what the term suggested to me when you said it.

... and referred to that little ridge in the Tapeats as a "bedding plane."

Yes, there is a bedding plane in the image.

That "bedding plane" is about half an inch deep and follows the curved border area between the Tapeats and the Vishnu. You really call that a bedding plane?

Did you see Percy's post since then that showed the area of this photo to cover about twenty square inches?

Actually, I pointed this our well before Percy did. I mentioned that the larger image with the geologist was from the exact location of the original picture that you posted

I misread you then. I thought you were merely saying that picture was taken in the vicinity of the other.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 379 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 10:38 PM edge has responded

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Faith
Member
Posts: 35119
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 383 of 409 (753603)
03-20-2015 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by jar
03-20-2015 10:45 PM


Re: how do you make heat and pressure?
The magma was in the form of intrusions an so it did have to be schist before the intrusion. Otherwise the material surrounding the intrusion would be something other than schist.

No it wouldn't. The magma intrusion baked whatever it was into schist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by jar, posted 03-20-2015 10:45 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by jar, posted 03-20-2015 11:05 PM Faith has responded
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Faith
Member
Posts: 35119
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 385 of 409 (753605)
03-20-2015 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by edge
03-20-2015 10:55 PM


Re: how do you make heat and pressure?
Well, it doesn't have to, I suppose, but it probably did. First of all, the development of a schist (with a platy foliation) is dynamothermal, meaning that there was deformation along with heating. If the intrusion caused the schist development, then there should be some geometric relationship of the intrusion to the orientation of the foliation. That does not appear to be the case.

As to the burial origin of the foliation, if that is due to the Paleozoic section being deposited, then the foliation should be closer to vertical. In fact, IIRC, there are some folds in the schist, which would suggest some kind of lateral compression.

I wonder if you would be so kind as to translate these paragraphs into simple English for us mentally challenged YECs? I would really like to have some idea what you are talking about.

{My non-admin counterpart has taken this message to Message 199. Please continue things unconformity there. - Adminnemooseus}

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Message in red.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 35119
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 388 of 409 (753608)
03-20-2015 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by jar
03-20-2015 11:05 PM


Re: how do you make heat and pressure?
Even geologist edge didn't say it was completely out of the question that the magma could have caused the schist, though he gave some technical reasons why he doesn't think that is what happened. Your posture of ridicule is out of place. And it's the COMBINATION of the heat from the magma PLUS the enormous weight of the three-mile stack of strata above that I proposed were the two factors that turned the original rock into schist.

"Common source of heat for all the schist?" I believe that is plentiful wherever there is schist in the canyon because granite is usually associated with it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 387 by jar, posted 03-20-2015 11:05 PM jar has responded

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 Message 389 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 11:19 PM Faith has responded
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Faith
Member
Posts: 35119
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 390 of 409 (753610)
03-20-2015 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by edge
03-20-2015 11:19 PM


Re: how do you make heat and pressure?
OK, fine, I will hold my theory alone then that magma intruding into rock rubble could transform it into schist, especially with the added pressure of the enormous weight of three miles of strata above it. However it happened, though, the mere presence of granite in the schist shows the presence of enough heat from magma in the general vicinity to fry the stuff.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 11:19 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 11:55 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35119
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 392 of 409 (753613)
03-20-2015 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by edge
03-20-2015 10:55 PM


Re: how do you make heat and pressure?
As to the burial origin of the foliation, if that is due to the Paleozoic section being deposited, then the foliation should be closer to vertical. In fact, IIRC, there are some folds in the schist, which would suggest some kind of lateral compression.

Tectonic pressure is usually lateral isn't it? That's what I attribute the whole scenario to, the Kaibab uplift, the tilted Supergroup, the formation of Vishnu and granite, the erosion between unconformity and Tapeats caused by sliding of the Supergroup etc.

In my scenario all the strata above is present three miles deep and then the upper two miles above the Permian broke up due to the uplift also. Heat from below, pressure from above and from the side both.


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 Message 382 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 10:55 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by edge, posted 03-21-2015 12:14 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35119
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 393 of 409 (753614)
03-20-2015 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by edge
03-20-2015 11:55 PM


Re: how do you make heat and pressure?
I'm putting together my own hypothesis, it is subject to change but not on the basis of everything you guys throw at me. So you can stop with your "you would know" jibes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 11:55 PM edge has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35119
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 396 of 409 (753619)
03-21-2015 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 395 by edge
03-21-2015 12:14 AM


Re: how do you make heat and pressure?
This is easily resolved by figuring that the tectonic pressure, while lateral, occurred BENEATH the level of the Paleozoic rocks, therefore only affecting the basement rocks -- or I shouldn't say "affecting" since I think the whole area was affected as it also caused the Kaibab uplift. But to reword it I'd say that since the direct lateral pressure was beneath the Paleozoic strata that it was only the rocks beneath that it pushed and tilted and distorted, while pushing up the whole stack above where they all managed to stay horizontal.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by edge, posted 03-21-2015 12:14 AM edge has responded

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