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Author Topic:   Evidence that the Great Unconformity did not Form Before the Strata above it
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 217 of 1939 (753674)
03-21-2015 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Faith
03-21-2015 3:54 PM


Re: Erosion simply CANNOT explain the flat contact line
I was not talking down to you. You're deflecting.

And I'd ask the same question about the actual contact line there as well, which can only be seen when the whole context is included in the picture

But it's not flat, that was the point of Message 204 which the only thing you took out of that was the point about quartzite. Go back and read the rest of the post that describes the contact surface.

think about the point I'm making! You have NOT addressed it, you've merely dismissed it with an irrelevant reference.

A reference that describes the actual contact surface is irrelevant? The point you are making is "it doesn't look eroded" and that you can't see how erosion could produce those features. Those aren't arguments they are personal incredulity.

And by the way, you could stop yelling at me.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Faith, posted 03-21-2015 3:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Faith, posted 03-21-2015 4:19 PM herebedragons has replied
 Message 315 by Admin, posted 03-23-2015 8:06 AM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 221 of 1939 (753681)
03-21-2015 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Faith
03-21-2015 4:19 PM


Re: Erosion simply CANNOT explain the flat contact line
Blatant denial.

You aren't thinking about the pictures I posted.

OK.

Red lines show channels filled in with Tapeats Sandstone. Not Flat

Red lines shows a cut into the Vishnu filled with Tapeats. I saw a version of this same area before and there are several of these visible.

The top is flat, yes. But it looks as if the layers below were laid down at an angle as shown by the blue lines. How were they either laid down on an angle OR how were they truncated by continuous deposition.

What is this? Is this supposed to be an unconformity?

You can draw straight yellow lines, so what?

quote:
(From Message 204) The maximum height of these monadnocks in the Shinumo quadrangle he gives as 600 feet. Schuchert,” after visiting an area farther east, refers to hills up to 700 feet, and Wheeler and Kerr “’ describe one north of Grand Canyon Village which rises approximately 800 feet above the base of the Tapeats sandstone.

These monadnocks are in the same general area as that photograph. Not flat.

By the way, in my post Message 204 my point was not about erosion, but about continuous sedimentation. So if you are claiming there was no erosion, then are you arguing that there WAS continuous sedimentation? How does continuous sedimentation produce those contact surfaces?

In Message 205, I showed an image with 4 unconformities. How would any of those unconformities form during continuous sedimentation WITHOUT erosion?

HBD

ABE:

ABE: You can bring up all kinds of exceptions, as I already acknowledged, but the problem is still how to explain the vast majority that exhibit such a flat horizontal contact -- and even the exceptions are MOSTLY flat and horizontal.

So if we ignore the exceptions, such as 800 foot tall monadnocks, then it is mostly flat.

Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given.


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Faith, posted 03-21-2015 4:19 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Admin, posted 03-23-2015 8:21 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 222 of 1939 (753685)
03-21-2015 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Faith
03-21-2015 4:18 PM


Re: Sorry, but there's so much wrong here
I would think it would depend on mitigating factors such as the presence of a cooling agent in the vicinity to retard the heat before it reaches the contact.

So, "mitigating factors" would control metamorphosis so that it produces a straight, flat contact line, but erosion can't. That makes no sense.

How is everything below your flat yellow line metamorphosed and everything above it remains unmetamorphosed.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Faith, posted 03-21-2015 4:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 226 of 1939 (753693)
03-21-2015 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Faith
03-21-2015 3:19 PM


Re: Erosion simply CANNOT explain the flat contact line
I went back and reread this and I guess I really don't understand your point (I guess you were right, I just didn't think about it )

But in image after image we see the strata above laid down FLAT on these lumpy rocks, so the surface did have to be flattish.

Lumpy rocks had flattish surfaces?

There would be no problem if we were talking about the surface of a mesa or butte or tepui, those are flat because the rock itself is flat or the exposed surface is flat.

So as long as the surface of the rock is flat, then its not a problem for it to be flat?

But on top of lumpy Vishnu or uptilted strata, no.

So the Vishnu and the uplifted strata are lumpy at the surface? Wouldn't that be the unconformity? So you are saying the surface of the Great Unconformity is lumpy but it couldn't be erosion that made it lumpy?

Then there are the cross sections, which are of course schematic, but why would anyone draw such inexorably straight lines if they didn't represent the reality well enough to justify it?

We have looked at these cross sections before and I showed you how layers pinched out or were truncated by other layers. Some layers are missing within the canyon. Some fill depressions and channels in the surface of another layer.

And, one might also ask, why did "erosion" stop where it did at that particular level? Why didn't it just keep on eroding downward, or create this flat surface at some other level?

What kind of question is this? Erosion would stop when there is no longer a differential in height or when deposition begins. Those questions make no sense, especially as a rebuttal to an unconformance being a period of non-deposition.

Besides all this, we don't need to decide HOW any particular surface came to be the way it is yet. What we need to do first is determine if a contact (the Great Unconformity in this case) is consistent with a period of non-deposition.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Faith, posted 03-21-2015 3:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Faith, posted 03-21-2015 7:51 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 227 of 1939 (753694)
03-21-2015 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Faith
03-21-2015 5:22 PM


Re: Erosion simply CANNOT explain the flat contact line
IT SHOULDN"T BE FLAT ANYWHERE! NOT ANYWHERE!

So landscapes exposed to the surface should not be flat like this:

or how about this:

It has monadnock structures just like the ones I have been describing in the Great Unconformity.

So your saying that these areas shouldn't be flat? Not anywhere? Why?

And stop yelling, it is completely unnecessary.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Faith, posted 03-21-2015 5:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Faith, posted 03-21-2015 6:17 PM herebedragons has replied
 Message 318 by Admin, posted 03-23-2015 8:32 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 232 of 1939 (753702)
03-21-2015 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Faith
03-21-2015 6:17 PM


Re: Erosion simply CANNOT explain the flat contact line
FOLLOW THE ARGUMENT!

What argument? That erosion can't make surfaces flat? That lumpy, bumpy rock isn't flat? There is no argument, you don't think erosion can make rocks flat. That's not an argument.

You should tell us then, what force of nature could flatten a lumpy bumpy surface into a flattish plane. What force?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Faith, posted 03-21-2015 6:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Faith, posted 03-21-2015 6:47 PM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 237 of 1939 (753714)
03-21-2015 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Faith
03-21-2015 6:47 PM


Re: Erosion simply CANNOT explain the flat contact line
FIRST ACKNOWLEDGE THE POINT, THAT EROSION CAN'T DO IT.

I don't think you've made the case that it can't.

But, the thing is that I have no idea what other force could do such a thing. If a surface was all jagged and bumpy and now it is flat... the only thing my limited scientific imagination can come up with is erosion.

If you have a better explanation, that would be a much better argument.

That's changing the subject.

You changed the subject. I was discussing the Great Unconformity and whether it was actually an unconformity or not. If there was continuous deposition and the Great Unconformity does not represent a period of non-deposition, then we need to talk about something other than erosion. We need to talk about how that feature could form during continuous deposition. If that is the case and there was no hiatus in deposition, then I will concede that erosion did not make those surfaces flat.

But, if it does represent a period of non-deposition, then we need to talk about what happened during that non-depositional time... was it erosion or something else?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Faith, posted 03-21-2015 6:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Faith, posted 03-21-2015 7:30 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 245 of 1939 (753737)
03-21-2015 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
03-21-2015 7:43 PM


Re: Erosion simply CANNOT explain the flat contact line
OK I think I know what you are trying to get at. Here is some pictures that Percy posted back in Message 88

You're saying that erosion could not have caused this process.

Here's the first problem... if we show you images of angular unconformities where it has been flattened, it the same situation; erosion could not have done it. If we show you images of tilted blocks in the process of being eroded (which is not practical because everything but the erosional surface will be buried) that is not evidence because it is still all bumpy and lumpy. By your standards nothing is evidence that erosion could wear a mountain range into a flat plain.

The second problem is... how do you know that erosion couldn't do this? You don't think it could. That's not evidence, that's not an valid argument. The way we know (or at least think that it could) that erosion can wear a mountain range down to a flat plain is that we see evidence of it in the rock record.

The idea seems strange to me too, it's hard to picture. But the evidence suggests that what happened.

You start with the premise that erosion can't reduce a mountain to a plain and then reject the evidence of it in the rock record.

If you are interested in the evidence of this, we can continue discussing why the Great Unconformity is actually an unconformity.

The other direction this could go is propose a way other than erosion that the Great Unconformity could form.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 03-21-2015 7:43 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Faith, posted 03-21-2015 8:15 PM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 248 of 1939 (753745)
03-21-2015 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Faith
03-21-2015 8:15 PM


Re: Erosion simply CANNOT explain the flat contact line
YOU DON'T HAVE EVIDENCE EITHER. YOU THINK IT COULD AND THAT'S THAT. HOW DO YOU KNOW EROSION COULD DO THIS? YOU THINK IT COULD. THAT'S NOT EVIDENCE, THAT'S NOT A VALID ARGUMENT.

I think it could... you think it couldn't. So we are on equal footing here.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF IT IN THE ROCK RECORD.

Are we going to discuss it or are you going to assert it? I have not asserted that erosion is the force that made "it" flat. I said what alternative is there? I said how do you know that erosion couldn't do that? I said we don't need to even discuss erosion if the GU is not even an unconformity; erosion is right off the table if the GU is not an unconformity.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF HOW THEY GOT THAT WAY.

I bet there is... How about we check?

Now is the Great Unconformity an unconformity or not?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Faith, posted 03-21-2015 8:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 03-22-2015 12:40 AM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 254 of 1939 (753777)
03-22-2015 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Faith
03-22-2015 12:40 AM


Denial is not evidence either
Declaring there is no evidence is nothing but evasive. Of course there is evidence. Maybe there is not enough evidence to come to a conclusion; maybe the evidence doesn't support the premise; maybe what evidence there is supports a different hypothesis besides erosion... but there certainly is evidence.

We could compare two competing hypotheses and see which one better fits the evidence. If the erosion hypothesis has no evidence to support it, then the competing hypothesis should find at least some support.

What you are saying is that you don't want to discuss the evidence, you just want to make unsupported declarations. You pretend that you have brought down the conventional view of geology and therefore any unsupported hypotheses are just as valid. That's nothing but basic denial.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 03-22-2015 12:40 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 03-22-2015 12:33 PM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 255 of 1939 (753778)
03-22-2015 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Faith
03-22-2015 12:38 AM


Re: Erosion simply CANNOT explain the flat contact line
The point Dr. A, edge and myself are trying to get across is that those surfaces you say couldn't be brought down by erosion because they are so flat are not flat.

So the question becomes "Can erosion make a lumpy, bumpy surface into a lumpy, bumpy surface?"

Nobody here reads carefully, nobody thinks.

You're the worst one for this. When we "misunderstand" your point you just keep repeating the same thing over and over often resorting to yelling and name calling. I try different approaches trying to get at what your saying, you just keep up the same mantra "declaration X is right, just think about what I said." over and over.

Sheesh yourself.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Faith, posted 03-22-2015 12:38 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by jar, posted 03-22-2015 9:06 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 280 of 1939 (753816)
03-22-2015 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Faith
03-22-2015 2:02 PM


I am not sure why it can't have strata above it. Does the strata above somehow flatten it? But how about these?

They all have tilted strata, no horizontal strata on top of them and are as flat as the GU.

What else?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 03-22-2015 2:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Faith, posted 03-22-2015 3:04 PM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 283 of 1939 (753819)
03-22-2015 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
03-22-2015 12:33 PM


Something else explains those flat contacts we see in the Great Unconformity.

I would like to hear what this "something else" might be. I have an idea what you have in mind, but would rather you describe it before I guess at what you're thinking.

Also keep in mind that any surface exposed to erosion today is in the process of being eroded. Erosion is not finished sculpting it. Deposition will not begin until the surface is low enough to begin accumulating sediment.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 03-22-2015 12:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Faith, posted 03-22-2015 3:27 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 289 of 1939 (753834)
03-22-2015 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by edge
03-22-2015 5:14 PM


Re: why can't erosion do it????????????
It's kind of confusing.

No doubt.

Apparently, she needs a flexural slip folding mechanism to get the detachment of the metamorphics from the Supergroup, from the Paleozoics, from the post-Permian; and that is why she needs perfectly planar surfaces. Otherwise the bedding planes could not slip appropriately.

I'm not sure this is the situation exactly. I am thinking that she is suggesting the the slip - folding is what caused the "perfectly" planar surfaces, rather than erosion. It is not a scenario you can find in any textbook, so it is something I was thinking about drawing up to show why it's not a feasible mechanism.

Basically, the logic is convoluted by a series of ad hoc explanations.

I think two major problems come into play (not just with any one person specifically, but with "floodists" in general). A rejection of standard geological explanations - basically, if the explanation involves long periods of time, it must be wrong. And looking at problems piece-meal - geology (and the GC in particular) are huge subjects with multiple lines of reasoning. Basic geology is not particularly difficult (I assume it can be very difficult at levels above what we are doing here) but is rather involved and requires looking at the big picture. When you look at only one piece at a time (like that image so much time was spent arguing about and whether there was ever layers on top of it) it makes it very easy to see things that don't make sense. Geology, as a whole, is a big picture exercise in my opinion.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by edge, posted 03-22-2015 5:14 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Faith, posted 03-22-2015 6:03 PM herebedragons has not replied
 Message 291 by edge, posted 03-22-2015 6:10 PM herebedragons has not replied
 Message 334 by Admin, posted 03-23-2015 10:41 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 292 of 1939 (753838)
03-22-2015 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Faith
03-22-2015 3:04 PM


The other pictures are pretty good, except the first one and that farm,

Odd, the first one was my favorite example. Are you looking at the ridge in the background? It is very Grand Canyon - like. I the farm (actually a church, but whatever) picture, you can't actually see the strata from the side view, but it should be clear they are practically vertical.

but I would guess they were all once angular unconformities and not just eroded tilted strata.

Now why would you guess that? If you are saying what I think you are saying, you are still right that erosion can't flatten tilted strata but these were flattened by another process, buried and then unburied. Now they look like eroded tilted strata but really aren't.

However, you came up with some examples so you win.

Worse concession speech ever.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Faith, posted 03-22-2015 3:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
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