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Author Topic:   Evidence that the Great Unconformity did not Form Before the Strata above it
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 339 of 1939 (753906)
03-23-2015 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by Admin
03-23-2015 8:06 AM


Re: Erosion simply CANNOT explain the flat contact line
You refer to Message 204, but that message wasn't making any arguments about non-flatness.

But it was. The description is of a weathered surface with cuts into it and structures that rose above it.

but some of the important details may not be getting across.

Yea, I get that. But if you look at Faith's response in Message 214, see only responds to the comment about quartzite not being metamorphic. I have no idea if she even read the rest of it. She has even stated she doesn't care about the details and that they are simply getting in the way of the discussion - or at least in the way of the point she is making. So I hope to eventually get back to some of the details in that post, but I'm not sure they would be helpful at this point.

from Message 316 An image of the monadnocks would be helpful.

They are hard to come by. There are so large that an image taken close up doesn't have the perspective and an image taken from far away doesn't have the detail. This image is the best example I could find of a monadnock.

I thought it was clear that the Shinumo Quartizite was the structure that protrudes through the Tapeats and so represents these so called monadnocks. Maybe not though, if you didn't catch it.

As you can see, it's not a cut and dried image, it takes some interpretation. And for sure, if there hadn't been a description that explained it, I wouldn't have picked it out. I also note that my interpretation might not be entirely accurate, if you want to look at it a bit closer and see if you agree with me? My concern was the brown band at the top of the Shimuno, it appears it might be Tapeats and this may not be the proper perspective to show the place where the Tapeats is missing.

Also, the grain is not completely clear from this distance, I think mostly because of the erosion that has created those vertical cuts. I do believe that the layer slopes upward from right to left. The slope of the Supergroup appears to much lower in this area than in some others where it can be up to 45 degrees.

from Message 316 Just to clarify, Faith doesn't believe the Great Unconformity was produced through sedimentation or erosion. She believes that tectonic forces caused it to rotate. Regarding non-angular unconformities, I believe Faith's denies that they are unconformities, denies evidence of erosion, and claims continuous sedimentation.

I thought as much, and I pressed her to spell it out so I would not mischaracterize her arguments. It is difficult to find illustrations of this concept so I am preparing a series of my own drawings to illustrate both how erosion CAN wear a surface flat and how the idea of rotating blocks under a stack of strata cannot work (or at least is not supported by observations). I will post them as soon as I can.

from Message 318 Might it be helpful to explain how a landscape came to be underlain by both harder and softer materials?

Hopefully my explanation of of how erosion can make a lumpy surface flat will help explain this. I will be sure to includes some details related to that as well.

But, I don't think it's worth spending time on complicated details until we can establish those basic principals.

HBD

Edited by herebedragons, : new link to image


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Admin, posted 03-23-2015 8:06 AM Admin has seen this message

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 377 of 1939 (754043)
03-24-2015 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 375 by Faith
03-24-2015 3:46 AM


Siccar Point is not a useful example ... For one thing it's been subjected to such severe weathering there's no way to be sure what it looked like originally.

Awww snap. And here we have been discussing the Grand Canyon which itself has been subject to severe weathering.

But I would expect that when it was first formed that surface would have been level, yes. And I figure that was the case because the upper strata, even in their ruined condition, show that THEY were straight. They aren't shaped to fit into dips in the lower strata.

This doesn't make any sense. If the lower strata has "dips" in it, then of course the upper strata will be shaped to fit into those "dips." edge is asking if the contact between the upper and lower strata is flat; the yellow line... is it flat?

Now it seems you are suggesting that when that contact surface was formed it was flat, but now it is not (since we can see that it is not) and we can't tell that it was originally flat because it is severely weather, but that's not erosion?

?????

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 3:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 8:28 AM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 378 of 1939 (754044)
03-24-2015 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 370 by Minnemooseus
03-23-2015 8:49 PM


What that diagram does show,

If I understand correctly (and there is a good chance I don't), this was a depiction of what Faith's idea of what the layering SHOULD look like if the Supergroup were tilted before the upper layers were deposited.

Faith writes:

Here's a perfectly horrible attempt to show how the layers would have butted up against the Great Unconformity if it was there before the strata were laid down. I moved the GU down, figuring none of it was raised.

When she posted this, she thought the unconformity was the entire blocks that were tilted, not just the contact with the upper layers.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Minnemooseus, posted 03-23-2015 8:49 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 380 of 1939 (754051)
03-24-2015 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by Faith
03-24-2015 8:28 AM


When you make comments like this it makes me want to ask "Do you even know what weathering is?"

The yellow line is the unconformity. How was it weathered after "it" was there?


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 8:28 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 9:06 AM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 386 of 1939 (754059)
03-24-2015 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 381 by Faith
03-24-2015 9:06 AM


If your argument is that the yellow line does not represent the actual surface of the unconformity but is an illusion caused by the erosion of the exposed surfaces, I guess that's a reasonable argument. I am not sure that is what you are actually saying though.

The surface of the unconformity is not subject to weathering itself. It is protected within the rock.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 9:06 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 10:44 AM herebedragons has taken no action

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 387 of 1939 (754060)
03-24-2015 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
03-24-2015 9:28 AM


Re: G U too flat to be eroded: images
So if it is straight and level, it supports your argument. But if it is not flat then it must have been disturbed after its formation and therefore irrelevant?

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 9:28 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 10:45 AM herebedragons has taken no action
 Message 400 by edge, posted 03-24-2015 11:15 AM herebedragons has taken no action

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 388 of 1939 (754061)
03-24-2015 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by edge
03-24-2015 10:12 AM


This is worse than I thought. Is there really any point in continuing here?

There is another major misunderstanding here, I just can't quite figure out what it is...

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by edge, posted 03-24-2015 10:12 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by edge, posted 03-24-2015 10:25 AM herebedragons has taken no action

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 390 of 1939 (754063)
03-24-2015 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by jar
03-24-2015 10:13 AM


Re: G U too flat to be eroded: images
Something I was thinking about...

there is no evidence that land plants had colonized the land even as late as the Cambrian. Of course, that could be an artifact of the erosion that wiped that surface clean, but if that is true, then none of the surface of the GU would have been secured by plant roots and would have suffered extreme erosion, at a far greater rate than we observe today.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by jar, posted 03-24-2015 10:13 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by edge, posted 03-24-2015 10:33 AM herebedragons has taken no action
 Message 426 by jar, posted 03-24-2015 2:51 PM herebedragons has taken no action

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 427 of 1939 (754126)
03-24-2015 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by Faith
03-24-2015 10:52 AM


Re: G U too flat to be eroded: images
Again, as usual, there is some kind of huge disconnect in this discussion that makes no sense to me.

After reading today's posts, I again get the impression that you don't understand what we mean by an unconformity. I realize that you think that unconformities form in a different way than we do, but it would be really helpful if we were all talking about the same thing. So at the risk of being patronizing I thought I would put up this image of an nonconformity for you viewing pleasure.

The "thing" we are referring to as the "unconformity" or the "surface of the unconformity" is the surface in figure C that has grass growing on it. That surface is the unconformity. It is not exposed to erosion after the upper sediments are laid down.

Figure D would be a depiction of the face, or cross section, that is exposed to erosion and what is visible to us. The thin line is the unconformity (in cross section) but the surface that has been overlain with horizontal sediment (in Fig C) is THE unconformity.

If I am wrong and you understand this, I apologize, but why would the surface of the unconformity that is buried many feet back from the exposed face be subject to erosion?

If you have some other understanding of an unconformity, what is it??

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 10:52 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 3:47 PM herebedragons has taken no action
 Message 437 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 6:12 PM herebedragons has taken no action

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 428 of 1939 (754131)
03-24-2015 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 401 by Faith
03-24-2015 11:16 AM


Just for the record, if I were thinking in terms of half a billion years I would expect the Grand Canyon long since to have dissolved into a pile of dust.

But you don't think erosion can reduce a landscape to dust even in a hundred billion years, so why would you expect the GC to be "reduced to dust."

And besides, the GC has been reduced to dust.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 11:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 431 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 3:25 PM herebedragons has taken no action

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 489 of 1939 (754369)
03-26-2015 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 476 by Faith
03-25-2015 10:47 PM


I only have a few minutes I can spend on this, but it seems like you are still having trouble visualizing what an unconformity is. The idea that the surface of an unconformity was exposed to weathering is an interpretation; THAT is what you want to argue... the interpretation of how an unconformity forms, but you seem to be arguing about what an unconformity IS, and that causes a LOT of confusion.

So, here I offer a definition that I think is a good description of what an unconformity IS without the added interpretations of how it forms or what it represents.

Unconformity: A boundary between two layers of strata where the upper layer does not sit conformably on the lower.

Which of course requires a second definition...

Conformable: A boundary between two layers that displays evidence of continuous deposition. Typically, one bed grades evenly into the other with no sharp or distinct break between the two.

In other words, an unconformity is a contact surface that does not display evidence of continuous deposition.

Regardless of HOW it formed, these definitions provide a description of it.

Here is another diagram of an unconformity

The first two drawings depict how it is thought to form, so just ignore them for now. So let's start at the last drawing and work backwards, because that's what we see in the field. Notice the black line represents the unconformity; it is the contact line that is exposed and represents the place where two layers meet where there is no evidence of continuous deposition - that is they meet unconformably.

Now, go to drawing 3 which has popped the upper layers off and look at the surface. That is the surface of the unconformity.

Drawings 1 and 2 work backwards even further and provide the idea of how these unconformities are thought to form. Those are the drawings you dispute, that you have an alternate explanation for. But we still seem to be arguing over drawing 3 and 4 which really aren't up for dispute. Those are observations, not interpretations (although the exact contour of the surface and the nature of the boundary might include some interpretation). But with respect to drawing 3 and 4, there are 2 options:

1. The contact shows evidence of continuous deposition or

2. The contact shows no evidence of continuous deposition.

If your answer is #1, then we need to discuss what the evidence is for continuous deposition.

If your answer is #2, then we all agree that it is an unconformity and we then need to move on to talking about HOW it formed - which is drawing 1 and 2.

The reason I think this all still needs some explanation is that you still seem to be indicating that erosion somehow affects the surface of the unconformity. So look again at drawing 3. Pick a point in the middle of that surface. Now put the upper layers back on. Now batter the exposed edges, the edges you can see in drawing 4, with erosion. Imagine cutting deep into the edges of that block - like maybe 1/8 of the way in. Now pop the upper layers off... has the point you selected changed or been affected? The answer should be "No." It has been protected deep within that block and is not exposed to erosion. It may change the perception of the line that represents the unconformity, but not the actual surface itself.

The horizontal gives less resistance to the weather than the vertical?

---------------------
---------------------
---------------------
---------------------

! ! ! !
! ! ! !
! ! ! !
! ! ! !
! ! ! !
! ! ! !
! ! ! !

Why would either of the above have more exposed surface? It is more likely to do with the resistance of the type of rock rather than orientation. However, this issue has nothing to do with the surface of the unconformity. This is where the confusion is coming from... we THINK you are saying that this differential erosion changes the SURFACE of the unconformity, but it doesn't. It only affects the exposed surface of the rock that is roughly perpendicular to the surface of the unconformity.

Again, I hope you don't take this as patronizing, I am trying to get across this concept so we can all be talking about the same thing - so communication can move forward.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by Faith, posted 03-25-2015 10:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by Faith, posted 03-26-2015 11:37 AM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 499 of 1939 (754403)
03-26-2015 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 496 by Faith
03-26-2015 11:37 AM


I think this is implicit in my discussions, but if not, more clarification might help.

I think I am clear on the general mechanism you have in mind for forming an unconformity, but I don't think that addresses the concern that you seem to be suggesting that erosion today can affect the surface of the unconformity. Maybe that is not what you have meant to suggest, but I don't think I am the only one who got that impression.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by Faith, posted 03-26-2015 11:37 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 501 by Faith, posted 03-26-2015 12:27 PM herebedragons has taken no action

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 508 of 1939 (754435)
03-26-2015 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 497 by Tanypteryx
03-26-2015 11:51 AM


Are the boundaries between the sedimentary layers considered to be unconformities?

I don't think that image is intended to depict the different layers to be separated by unconformities. The red and black lines only.

The change to deposition of a completly different rock type; sandstone to limestone to shale, etc. must represent gaps in deposition and changes in depositional environments, rather than continuous deposition.

You have to think of this in terms of geological time. The change will not be so abrupt but rather the layers will blend into each other at the boundary. In order to prevent mixing of layers there would need to be enough time for the lower layer to consolidate otherwise it would just be stirred back up when the next layer is put down.

So if you think about it, there could be a couple hundred years from when one sediment deposition stops and another begins, but that would be merely a blip in geological time and probably wouldn't show up in the rock record.

Faith was right that Walther's Law would be applicable for at least one way sedimentation environments can change, as it could vary both spatially AND temporally.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 497 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-26-2015 11:51 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 510 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-26-2015 6:29 PM herebedragons has taken no action
 Message 513 by edge, posted 03-26-2015 7:47 PM herebedragons has taken no action

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 509 of 1939 (754437)
03-26-2015 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by edge
03-25-2015 4:30 PM


This photo has some other interesting features. Ask if curious,

Yea, what are the blue stones?
_________________

Percy posted this image at Message 487

It can be very hard to interpret an 2D image and draw conclusions about 3D reality, but it looks like the contact dips in the lower left. What ya think?

I am not sure what to make of the area in the blue circle.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by edge, posted 03-25-2015 4:30 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by edge, posted 03-26-2015 7:35 PM herebedragons has replied
 Message 690 by edge, posted 03-31-2015 12:52 PM herebedragons has taken no action

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 519 of 1939 (754466)
03-26-2015 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 512 by edge
03-26-2015 7:35 PM


That was the one question I was afraid of.

Well then you should have said AMAEABS (Ask Me Anything Except About the Blue Stones)

I think it's a flat area with some pebbles laying on the surface,

Thanks Mr. obvious, LOL. I was saying it is unclear if it is above the unconformity or obscuring it.

There's nothing like actually being there to interpret geological features.

No doubt about that.

What I'd really like to see is a view from the right looking at the scarp face. That would give some idea of the third dimension.

That would really help. Pictures seem to be taken mostly by sightseers not people involved in an internet discussion about unconformities. Not much help there.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 512 by edge, posted 03-26-2015 7:35 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 524 by edge, posted 03-27-2015 12:01 AM herebedragons has taken no action

  
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