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Author Topic:   Evidence that the Great Unconformity did not Form Before the Strata above it
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 368 of 1939 (754005)
03-23-2015 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by Faith
03-23-2015 4:31 PM


Re: G U too flat to be eroded: images
"Flatter" is not as remarkably flat as the GU in the images I posted in 213 and 313. And again, get your surface as flat as you can, does the rain stop? Does the wind stop? If not they are going to continue to cut into the surface and unsettle its flatness.
Not really. If your understanding were correct we could just erode right down into the mantle.
The problem you have is that you cannot erode beyond the base level (usually sea level). You can only erode from the areas above that.
ABE: And didn't any tectonic events occur to raise the land either?
Why should uplift occur at any particular time?

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 Message 351 by Faith, posted 03-23-2015 4:31 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 369 of 1939 (754008)
03-23-2015 5:53 PM


Since we are talking about erosion and the formation of 'flat' platforms, here is one mechanism:
There should be enough notation here to help with the explanation, but if not let's discuss rather than complain. I think this is an important mechnism for the Great Unconformity becuase you can easily imagine it happening as the Cambrian transgression cut into Precambrian rocks on the continent. I have personally seen this on the west coast of N.A., and many of the images we have provided show this mechanism at work.

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by Faith, posted 03-23-2015 10:08 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 374 of 1939 (754037)
03-24-2015 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 372 by Faith
03-23-2015 10:08 PM


I don't see how that process would get you such level straight contacts as seen in the pictures I've posted. Even in your diagram the resultant platform is not level.
So you assert.
How can you tell? I think you are saying that it is not horizontal, but how do you know that the G.U. was horizontal? Certainly the lower sequence it tilted in many places, so what's to keep the unconformity itself horizontal?
Besides, we've given you plenty of examples that are pretty clear as to how they happened. So, what have you got?
Do you think this surface was level? And do you think it is smooth?
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Faith, posted 03-23-2015 10:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 3:46 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 384 of 1939 (754057)
03-24-2015 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 375 by Faith
03-24-2015 3:46 AM


Siccar Point is not a useful example when we are talking about the surface of the lower formation without the upper having been deposited.
That's not what I was asking. I was asking, 'is it a smooth surface'?
For one thing it's been subjected to such severe weathering there's no way to be sure what it looked like originally.
Well, then, I'm going to say that the GU in the Grand Canyon is 'too weathered to tell what it originally looked like.
But I would expect that when it was first formed that surface would have been level, yes. And I figure that was the case because the upper strata, even in their ruined condition, show that THEY were straight. They aren't shaped to fit into dips in the lower strata.
Let me get this straight.
You are saying that the shape of the unconformity has changed since it formed.
ETA: Please describe this change at Siccar Point.
This is worse than I thought. Is there really any point in continuing here?
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 3:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by herebedragons, posted 03-24-2015 10:16 AM edge has replied
 Message 393 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 10:39 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 389 of 1939 (754062)
03-24-2015 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by Faith
03-24-2015 8:28 AM


Siccar Point gets far more severe weathering than the Grand Canyon.
Erosion after the unconformity is there is not what we're talking about.
So, it's weathering that caused the unconformity at Siccar point to change after it was buried by the upper sequence of rocks. It went from smooth to rough.
And that makes it irrelevant to the discussion.
ETA: According to Faith, that is...
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

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 Message 379 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 8:28 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 391 of 1939 (754065)
03-24-2015 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by herebedragons
03-24-2015 10:16 AM


There is another major misunderstanding here, I just can't quite figure out what it is...
I think it has to do with Faith thinking that the surface, which was obviously smooth and level, has been changed by secondary processes that she refuses to describe or explain. If she did try to do so, she would find that they make no sense.
The frightening thing is that understanding Faith is like stepping into Wonderland.

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edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 392 of 1939 (754066)
03-24-2015 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 390 by herebedragons
03-24-2015 10:21 AM


Re: G U too flat to be eroded: images
Something I was thinking about...
there is no evidence that land plants had colonized the land even as late as the Cambrian. Of course, that could be an artifact of the erosion that wiped that surface clean, but if that is true, then none of the surface of the GU would have been secured by plant roots and would have suffered extreme erosion, at a far greater rate than we observe today.
That's a good point. Erosion was probably different at that time. I'm sure the point still stands that you cannot erode below base level with running water.
There is another fly in the ointment that I hesitate to bring up because it will probably make us follow Faith down another rabbit hole. But, casting fate to the wind:
There are several lines of evidence suggesting multiple phases of glaciation in the latest Proterozoic, just before the Cambrian. Now if you want to have a nice, smooth, planer surface try that on for size.

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 Message 390 by herebedragons, posted 03-24-2015 10:21 AM herebedragons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 10:52 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 397 of 1939 (754072)
03-24-2015 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 393 by Faith
03-24-2015 10:39 AM


The GC doesn't get anywhere near as severe weather as Siccar Point, and much of the GU we see in the GC doesn't get much exposure to weather anyway, such as in the side canyons, but I'm sure it's true that there has been some deterioration of the original GU there too. I'd expect that the contact used to be even more flat than it is now.
So, you know how severe the weathering was in the Grand Canyon are was half a billion years ago? That's fabulous Faith.
I'm saying the rock has been so battered by the weather at Siccar Point that it isn't clear that there was originally a straight contact between upper and lower sections, as illustrated by that drawing at my blog I just posted to jar.
By that reasoning, Faith, every bedding plane in the upper sequence should be battered as much as the unconformity. There should be no original sedimentary features left.
In your picture the sandstone is almost shredded by the weathering, reduced to splinters. The lower strata no longer have the straight upper surface that is shown in that drawing.
So you are comparing a schematic diagram to an actual photograph. How clever!
Siccar Point is the barely skeletal remains of what must originally have been a much broader and deeper stack of strata, but most of it was destroyed, leaving this small pile of heavily weathered rocks.
But your little sketch does not show this, does it? I see nice even layering all through both the upper and lower sequences.
Once again, you are saying that an ancient unconformity surface is changing in geometry because of modern erosion. I think someone spiked my orange juice this morning...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 10:39 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 11:16 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 398 of 1939 (754073)
03-24-2015 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by Faith
03-24-2015 10:52 AM


Re: G U too flat to be eroded: images
Again, as usual, there is some kind of huge disconnect in this discussion that makes no sense to me. I don't *want* any particular thing, I simply SEE the flatness and levelness and I think it's very clear how it has been lost in some cases by disturbances after it was all laid down, ...
So, you are saying that you SEE the unconformity changing from smooth to rough? Interesting...

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 Message 396 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 10:52 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 399 of 1939 (754074)
03-24-2015 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 394 by Faith
03-24-2015 10:44 AM


Except it isn't. Those in the GC are but Siccar Point isn't. Weather has been battering this small rock formation from all sides for thousands of years and there is no protection left.
So, the weathering (erosion, actually) that can penetrate the rock mass and change the character of the unconformity, still manages to leave behind clear bedding features in the overlying rock strata.
I think I need more of an explanation here...
ETA: See how the smooth unconformity in this sketch has been damaged by erosion (according to you) but the upper layers are still intact in the modern picture. Arguably, the uppermost layers of red sandstone have suffered even more erosion than the unconformity plane. Please explain.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 10:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 11:22 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 400 of 1939 (754079)
03-24-2015 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 387 by herebedragons
03-24-2015 10:15 AM


Re: G U too flat to be eroded: images
So if it is straight and level, it supports your argument. But if it is not flat then it must have been disturbed after its formation and therefore irrelevant?
The weird thing is that now she's saying that erosion is causing the distrubance...

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 Message 387 by herebedragons, posted 03-24-2015 10:15 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 404 of 1939 (754092)
03-24-2015 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 402 by Faith
03-24-2015 11:22 AM


Your yellow line in this case may not really define the contact line but a deterioration of what is left of it.
(Sigh...)
The upper section in the photo doesn't even look like it's resting on the lower section, it sort of looks like it's collapsed behind it.
Hunh? Explain or show a diagram.
Why would Hutton's drawing show a straight contact line if it wasn't there?
It's called a schematic diagram.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 11:22 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 405 of 1939 (754093)
03-24-2015 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 401 by Faith
03-24-2015 11:16 AM


You know, it would probably help communication if you realized that I NEVER think in terms of millions of years. I ALWAYS have around 4500 years in mind for the age of all these formations.
You know, it would probably help if you realized that I/we always think in terms of long ages...
That's what the evidence tells us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 11:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 12:05 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 413 of 1939 (754105)
03-24-2015 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 401 by Faith
03-24-2015 11:16 AM


The "upper sequence" being the horizontal strata above the vertical? But it certainly IS that battered: those rocks are barely a shadow of their former selves, nothing left but splinters basically.
And how do you know their 'former selves'?
But that's not even the point here. The point is that if the weathering is so severe at the unconformity, why is there anything left of the uppermost layers?
Think of it this way. Why is the uppermost dashed yellow line still intact? If you were correct, it should be battered to tiny splinters and scattered across the North Sea.
By the way, I have outlined in blue some clasts of the lower sequence within the upper. How do you suppose they got there?
And surely there was once a huge stack of strata above them too, just as in the GC, long since destroyed by tectonic and other forces.
And all of the time they were eroded, they were protecting the unconformity at this point...
And do try to remember: I don't think of each bedding plane as having been exposed for any great period of time.
Then neither has the unconformity been exposed to the elements for a great period of time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 11:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 1:20 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 414 of 1939 (754106)
03-24-2015 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 409 by Faith
03-24-2015 12:28 PM


I think so.
Then please explain. And remember, just repeating the assertion is not an expalanation. Nor is saying that it's obvious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by Faith, posted 03-24-2015 12:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
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