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Author Topic:   Discontinuing research about ID
Coyote
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Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 16 of 393 (755124)
04-04-2015 4:52 PM


From the link:

Through lack of interest our research is now discontinued

Good. Maybe you can now turn your interests toward something productive.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


  
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Message 17 of 393 (755125)
04-04-2015 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dubreuil
04-04-2015 5:51 AM


Hi Dubreuil,

Just curious. Where are you from that "„" is the open-quote character? Also, is English a second language for you?


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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dwise1
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Message 18 of 393 (755127)
04-04-2015 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Admin
04-04-2015 5:23 PM


That would be German. Though it would be interesting to learn whether other languages use it too.

{ABE - I believe his e-mail adress is public here. Look at that. - Adminnemooseus)

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : ABE.


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Admin
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Message 19 of 393 (755128)
04-04-2015 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by dwise1
04-04-2015 6:03 PM


His email is German, but glancing at a couple German newspapers, including Der Spiegel, I didn't see any low double quotes. Are you sure? Or maybe it's reserved for certain contexts?

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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dwise1
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Message 20 of 393 (755130)
04-04-2015 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Admin
04-04-2015 7:29 PM


Seven or eight years studying the language. BA German degree. All our textbooks and academic publications used „these quotation marks."

However, in looking through my German paperbacks, I find them using French double quotes, albeit inconsistently:

either «comme ci» (which I understand to be correct French and is confirmed by my copy of Ian Fleming's «Bons Baisers de Russie»)

or »comme ça«

But then I pulled down my Reclam paperback copies of „Also Sprach Zarathustra" and of „Das Nibelungenlied". Both of those use „this style of double quotes."

But like I said, maybe other languages use traditional German double quotes too.

So, yeah, what do I know?

PS

Refer also to PDF at http://usa.usembassy.de/...%20Twain%20Awful%20Broschuere.pdf: Mark Twain's "The Awful German Language". From page 7:

quote:
Grußwort

Mark Twain beschrieb in seiner Abhandlung „Die schreckliche deutsche Sprache“ seine Erfahrungen beim Erlernen der deutschen Sprache.


Na also.

PPS

Mind you, I haven't been in-country since 1974, so I'm probably not up on current usages.

Edited by dwise1, : corrected Ian's name

Edited by dwise1, : PS

Edited by dwise1, : PPS


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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 393 (755131)
04-04-2015 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dubreuil
04-04-2015 2:58 PM


Re: Present the Argument here
The paper is not one of the typical intelligent design papers that can be summarised with a few sentences. The objective empirical evidences are presented on 42 pages and this empirical argument can not be shortened.

If you cannot defend your idea with an 'elevator speech' perhaps you have less than jack diddly squat. What would you tell a publisher if he offered you a couple of minutes to persuade him to take on your work?


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 393 (755134)
04-04-2015 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Dubreuil
04-04-2015 4:04 PM


Re: Present the Argument here
The pattern was created to fit with season 1, 3 and 4 at the actual start of the episode (00:00). Afterwards it was tested on season 5 and 6 and a random data source.

In plain English and without a reference to the paper: What is the season, and what is the pattern, and how was the fit tested?


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Dubreuil
Member (Idle past 2274 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 04-02-2015


Message 23 of 393 (755137)
04-05-2015 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by New Cat's Eye
04-04-2015 10:24 PM


Re: Present the Argument here
In plain English and without a reference to the paper: What is the season, and what is the pattern, and how was the fit tested?

I can't explain here what the pattern is unless someone explains me how to post images and tables here. How I said, I'm sceptical how a review here could have a good quality. The presentability appears to be limited here.


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Admin
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Posts: 12788
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Message 24 of 393 (755138)
04-05-2015 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Dubreuil
04-05-2015 6:49 AM


Re: Present the Argument here
When you're replying to a message, look at the links in the column to the left of the message reply box that you're typing into. Click on the help link for dBCodes. It will explain how to use dBCodes like [img], [list], [table] and others that will help you in your presentation of information.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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JonF
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Posts: 6174
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Message 25 of 393 (755139)
04-05-2015 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Dubreuil
04-05-2015 6:49 AM


Re: Present the Argument here
You can compose a table in HTML and paste the result into your message but remove all whitespace and line breaks before pasting. I find this easier than doing the native table.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 637 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 26 of 393 (755140)
04-05-2015 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dubreuil
04-04-2015 1:35 PM


Re: put up or shut up -- this is not a whine and jeez party
Seriously, you can't review the paper within a few hours. It takes at least a month to examine the whole paper. Not even experienced reviewers can review a paper of this size in less than a month.

Agreed, nor can you just ask someone to spend such an amount of time, energy and resources to review your paper without providing sufficient information that would make it interesting. That is why we ask you to condense it into specific points.

What I can however do is look at your paper and see that it is missing clearly defined elements that are required for applying and completing the scientific methodology that should be expected for a paper to be adequately prepared for scientific review.

The best argument is presented on page 6-7 under "Proving the pattern". ...

And what is it? Curiously I was well beyond page 8 and still looking for how a pattern was demonstrated. Clearly you are going to need to provide something more than references to page numbers.

My impression at this point is that you have made a very complex analysis of something rather simple, but that you can't state it simply. Now I know it is a shocking concept that the main characters appear regularly in a TV show and interact in a way that makes patterns in line with the basic premise of the show. In the original Star Trek everyone knew that >the new ensign in the red shirt that beamed down to the planet with the main characters was going to die< was a stock story pattern.

The whole Appendix B is about the falsification test.

Really? Here I thought it was the objective empirical data for generating and developing the pattern:

... The objective empirical evidence for this calculation is represented in Appendix A and Appendix B on pages 16-37. ...

You do understand don't you that making a pattern out of the data in appendix B and then using the data in appendix B to test the pattern is not a true falsification test, but more like a begging the question logical fallacy.

Nowhere in appendix B or anywhere else in your paper do you describe how your pattern analysis could be falsified. What I did see was your modifications of the "pattern" found in appendix A to make it fit appendix B ... by making it more general.

To make the remaining 9 episodes fit with the pattern, 12 additions were necessary. To make the remaining 9 episodes fit with the pattern, 12 additions were necessary. The pattern that results has less quality: ...

So either appendix B falsifies your pattern or it is part of it: your choice.

The question was: "Do you accept papers about intelligent design for a peer-review?" and there was always a refusing answer. ...

You would get the same response if you asked "Do you accept papers about astrology for a peer-review?" -- and the reason is that neither astrologists nor IDologists have yet demonstrated doing science. If you are doing science then it should not matter whether it is about ID or astrology or making pigs fly.

If we take it as given that you found an amazing pattern of repetition in the Star Trek series with a high degree of non-trivial non-randomness -- that the whole first 12 pages are accurate and valid and true for the sake of argument -- how does this relate to Intelligent Design? It appears that you just extrapolate from Star Trek to Intelligent Design and boldly go where no science has gone before.

Let me extract only those parts that discuss Intelligent Design:

quote:
(Abstract) ... The similarities with the circumstances of the origin of first life are tremendous. The results indicate that intelligent design exists at the present time. ...

Introduction

The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. The theory of intelligent design gives answers to largely unanswered questions, like the origin of first live. For the origin of first life a force is missing that drives polymerization [3]. Not only to largely unanswered biological and chemical questions an answer is given, even the fine-tuned universe could be possibly explained through an intelligent cause. A force that causes complexity in such diversity would be a mathematical or a physical force. If an intelligent cause exists as fundamental force of nature, then it could be still present and sensible at the present time. Raw data will be analysed for included patterns. If a fundamental force exists that creates complexity for several different situations, then it could create complexity for human decision processes as well. It will be shown that the results are best explained by a bias in chance itself, to create nontrivial structures.

The patterns' origin and intelligent design

... The patterns origin seems to be more likely in chance itself, then in unconscious human decision processes. That could be an indication for intelligent design. There are existing similar problems for creating a suitable theory for the origin of first life. The question of how simple organic molecules formed a protocell is largely unanswered [3]. The circumstances for this question are the same as for the found pattern. In both settings is chance the most important factor. A protocell can only form if all necessary molecules are at the correct place at the correct time. The found pattern can only originate, if all persons are at the correct place at the correct time. If chance itself is biased to create nontrivial structures, then both problems can be explained with intelligent design. ...


It appears that you make the common (creationist) mistake of thinking that ALL the elements of a protocell need to be present in order for the protocell to form in one fell swoop. This has been demonstrated to be a false assumption.

Thus your argument of 12 tedious pages reduces down to a spurious calculation of an improbability akin to the assembly of an airplane in a junkyard by a tornado.

In other words you created an intricate overly complex mathematical structure, and then argue that it applies to a straw man argument in order to show Intelligent Design.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : "


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Message 27 of 393 (755141)
04-05-2015 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by JonF
04-05-2015 8:21 AM


Re: Present the Argument here
You don't actually want to remove all white space, else this:

<table>
<tr>
<td>
This is row 1, col 1
<td>
This is row 1, col 2
<tr>
<td>
This is row 2, col 1
<td>
This is row 2, col 2
</table>

Becomes this:

Thisisrow1,col1Thisisrow1,col2
Thisisrow2,col1Thisisrow2,col2

I think all you really need to do is remove all vertical white space, which yields this:

This is row 1, col 1 This is row 1, col 2
This is row 2, col 1 This is row 2, col 2

Are there easy ways of removing vertical white space? If you're typing into a message box, removing vertical white space from a lengthy table might be a significant task. I'm not very familiar with Notedpad or Wordpad, but taking a quick look at them they don't appear to have a way to remove vertical white space. It's easy in Emacs, I don't know about other editors.

One alternative to consider is to do all your table markup in normal HTML, then replace <table>, <tr> and <td> with [table], [row] and [col]. Even Notepad and Wordpad can do this.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Dubreuil
Member (Idle past 2274 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 04-02-2015


Message 28 of 393 (755142)
04-05-2015 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by New Cat's Eye
04-04-2015 10:24 PM


Re: Present the Argument here
what is the pattern

Quotation from page 2-3:

There wasn't the resources to sustain large experiments with a lot participants like [2], so a free accessible data set fulfilled this purpose.

Before creating a pattern, the basic outline must be defined. According to [2], every time a person is avoided, every time a person gets a positive benefit and every time a person just appears will be observed. These are equal outlines to the study that found patterns in preferences regarding approaching or avoiding objects.

E1 E2 E3 E4
Jean-Luc Picard * *, + - *
William Riker *
Geordi La Forge * * *
Worf * *, +

To describe over time which person gets a positive benefit or gets a disadvantage (are avoided) the pattern will be divided into different events that allows appearances and a person to be affected positively or negatively. Every „*“ allows an appearance and every „+“ or „-“ allows a person to be affected positively or negatively. If a person appears who does not appear at the current event but can appear at the next event, the pattern moves on, and other persons can be affected positively or negatively. An example: If E1 is the current event, then „Jean-Luc Picard“ and „William Riker“ (ST:TNG) can appear and discuss. If „Worf“ appears the next event is triggered and „Jean-Luc Picard“ can be affected positively at E2. The event after E2 can only be triggered if „Worf“ is affected positively or „Jean-Luc Picard“ is affected negatively and so on.

A person counts as appeared if this person is clearly visible, is named or if the person starts to speak. If a person gets interrupted while speaking through someone else and then starts to speak again it counts as an-other appearance. Equally if a person walks away and becomes visible again after this disappearance. Otherwise a person that started speaking once or appeared once would never appear again and no consistent pattern could be created.

In this situation (3x03 E11):

Data: „Captain!“

first Data appears because he started to speak. Then Picard appears because he is named. If Data wasn't already visible but is visible shortly after he asked for the Captain, Data appears again.

The following short forms will be used:

„Jean-Luc Picard“ = P.Pi
„William Riker“ = P.Ri
„Geordi La Forge“ = P.LF
„Worf“ = P.Wo
„Deanna Troi“ = P.Tr
„Data“ = P.Da
„Beverly Crusher“ = P.BeC
„Wesley Crusher“ = P.WeC
„Tasha Yar“ = P.Ya

If „Jean-Luc Picard“ appears, *P.Pi will be used. If „Jean-Luc Picard“ is affected positively or negatively P.Pi+ or P.Pi- will be used.

what is the season

One season are 26 succeeding episodes.

how was the fit tested

E1 is the starting point and how the events have to appear after each other looks like this: E1 -> E2 -> E3 -> E4

An episode is quantisied for example to:
*P.Pi, *P.LF, *P.Wo, P.Pi+, P.Pi-, *P.LF

This episode fits with the pattern:
E1: *P.Pi, *P.LF /E2: *P.Wo, P.Pi+ /E3: P.Pi- /E4: *P.LF

Quantisations that fit:
*P.Pi, *P.LF, *P.Wo, P.Pi+, P.Pi-, *P.LF
E1: *P.Pi, *P.LF /E2: *P.Wo, P.Pi+ /E3: P.Pi- /E4: *P.LF
*P.Ri, *P.LF, P.Pi+, *P.LF, P.Wo+, *P.Pi
E1: *P.Ri, *P.LF /E2: P.Pi+, *P.LF /E3: P.Wo+ /E4: *P.Pi
*P.LF, *P.Pi, *P.Wo, P.Wo+, *P.LF
E1: *P.LF, *P.Pi /E2: *P.Wo /E3: P.Wo+ /E4: *P.LF

Quantisations that doesn't fit:
*P.Pi, P.Pi-, *P.Ri, *P.LF, P.Wo+
E1: *P.Pi, P.Pi-??
*P.Pi, *P.Wo, *P.Ri, *P.Wo, P.Wo+
E1: *P.Pi /E2: *P.Wo, *P.Ri??
*P.LF, *P.Wo, P.Wo+, P.LF+, *P.LF
E1: *P.LF /E2: *P.Wo /E3: P.Wo+, P.LF+??

This is an exemplary pattern with 4 events, 4 persons and 1 starting point (E1) that explains what the pattern is and how the fit was tested. The actual pattern has 15 events, 13 person, 12 additional marks that were looked for and 4 starting points.

An example for a row of appearances that doesn't fit with the actual pattern (Appendix B 1x11)

*P.Al, {*P.Tr, *P.Ri}, *P.Pi, M13, *P.Al, *P.Mi, *P.Ri, *P.Tr, *P.Mi, *P.Pi, *P.Tr, P.Tr-

E1: *P.Al, {*P.Tr, *P.Ri??}
E3: *P.Al, {*P.Tr, *P.Ri}, *P.Pi, M13??
E4: *P.Al, {*P.Tr??, *P.Ri}
E5: *P.Al??

{} means that both persons appear at the same moment together.

Edited by Dubreuil, : No reason given.


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Admin
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Posts: 12788
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 29 of 393 (755143)
04-05-2015 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Dubreuil
04-05-2015 9:34 AM


Re: Present the Argument here
It might be helpful if you made clear when you're quoting from your paper and when you're not. In this case the first 2/3 of your message is from pages 2-3 of your paper.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 326 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(2)
Message 30 of 393 (755146)
04-05-2015 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dubreuil
04-04-2015 5:51 AM


I wonder how many times you have received this response to your idea and is there a pattern revealed by how long it takes to show up?

I think that the important pattern that you need to take note of is revealed in this quote from your paper,

quote:
Intelligent design assumes, that an intelligent cause exists that is responsible for intelligent design.

The flaw that I see with theories of intelligent design is that they all seek to compare similarities between naturally occurring patterns and patterns created by intelligent agents. The flaw lies in the fact that intelligent agents design things based on what they see in nature. So the fact that an airplane resembles a bird in no way supports the idea that the bird was designed.

The concept of ID requires the assumption that patterns will not occur without intelligent input.


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