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Author Topic:   Where should there be "The right to refuse service"?
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 541 of 928 (755754)
04-11-2015 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 539 by coffee_addict
04-11-2015 9:14 AM


The only reason this nation needed to legislate in regard to the treatment of black people because they were rioting and burning.
When a people's rights and lives have been trampled for so long this is often the only recourse to achieve liberty. Just ask the founding fathers.
Good old American tradition.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by coffee_addict, posted 04-11-2015 9:14 AM coffee_addict has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(3)
Message 542 of 928 (755757)
04-11-2015 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 539 by coffee_addict
04-11-2015 9:14 AM


I disagree. I think that a society in which there are places you don't want to go, because of your sexuality, colour or gender, is a society in need of fixing. And part of the toolbox to fix it are anti-discrimination laws and the enshrining of legal equality.
And those laws don't get introduced just because of rioting and burning. They got introduced in the UK without any such impetus. And the laws in both our countries, seeking to prevent sex discrimination also got introduced without women burning anything or rioting (though there were some demonstrations). They got introduced because people didn't want their societies to tolerate racial or sex discrimination.
Me, I want to be part of a society which has laws prohibiting discrimination based on sexuality. Not out of sense of intrusive protectiveness - but because I don't want my society to be a homophobic one.
That won't be achieved in my lifetime - but it might in my grandchildren's, if we now speak up, educate, confront, and slap down the homophobes here and there.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by coffee_addict, posted 04-11-2015 9:14 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 543 by coffee_addict, posted 04-11-2015 10:46 AM vimesey has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 543 of 928 (755758)
04-11-2015 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 542 by vimesey
04-11-2015 10:23 AM


vimesey writes
quote:
I disagree. I think that a society in which there are places you don't want to go, because of your sexuality, colour or gender, is a society in need of fixing. And part of the toolbox to fix it are anti-discrimination laws and the enshrining of legal equality.
I agree that such a society needs fixing. But legislating it is the wrong way to go.
quote:
And those laws don't get introduced just because of rioting and burning. They got introduced in the UK without any such impetus. And the laws in both our countries, seeking to prevent sex discrimination also got introduced without women burning anything or rioting (though there were some demonstrations). They got introduced because people didn't want their societies to tolerate racial or sex discrimination.
The US is not England. May I remind you that you guys dumped all your religious nutjobs here back when.
quote:
Me, I want to be part of a society which has laws prohibiting discrimination based on sexuality. Not out of sense of intrusive protectiveness - but because I don't want my society to be a homophobic one.
You can't legislate people's belief system. You just can't. The communists tried this and it failed miserably.
May I suggest an alternative?
I have always believed that sunshine is the best disinfectant. I believe it can be applied here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by vimesey, posted 04-11-2015 10:23 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 545 by NoNukes, posted 04-11-2015 10:55 AM coffee_addict has not replied
 Message 555 by vimesey, posted 04-11-2015 2:16 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 544 of 928 (755759)
04-11-2015 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 539 by coffee_addict
04-11-2015 9:14 AM


Don't kid yourself. The only reason this nation needed to legislate in regard to the treatment of black people because they were rioting and burning. Too many liberals are too quick to forget that these anti-discrimination laws were put in because the country was burning. It wasn't because people were somehow changed.
Which legislation are you referring to? Because the legislation I recall, namely the civil rights acts of 1964 and the civil rights acts of 1957 were not responses to rioting. I'd recommend taking a look at who was committing the violence on whom prior to 1967 or so.
I suspect that someone needs to pick up a history text and gain some context about the relationships between black and white people over 400 years of history in this country, because your post reflects ignorance of the highest order.
I agree with you that the current discrimination you face is similar in some ways to what black people faced in the 1960s. On the other hand, I suspect your ancestors did not arrive here chained to the bottom of a boat. I also suspect that the fact that you can even served at venues where people give you a dirty looks and whisper behind your back is due to what black people went through a couple hundred years before your butt saw the light of day.
My partner and I have learned to avoid any place that even hints at being religious. If we go into a store and we observe someone being religious or mentions god, we just leave. It's not that hard to avoid being discriminated against.
Wow brother. I'm sure I have no idea what you go through on a regular basis. I'm disgusted by the treatment you receive. Unfortunately, such treatment does not seem to translate into sensitivity for the plight of others. Black people are seemingly even more homophobic than other people. And your understanding of history is about as one sided and racist as anything I've read or heard.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by coffee_addict, posted 04-11-2015 9:14 AM coffee_addict has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 545 of 928 (755760)
04-11-2015 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 543 by coffee_addict
04-11-2015 10:46 AM


You can't legislate people's belief system. You just can't. The communists tried this and it failed miserably.
For the most part, the civil rights act of 1957 and 1964 have been smashing successes. You apparently have no clue what life was like in this country prior to 1950 or so.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by coffee_addict, posted 04-11-2015 10:46 AM coffee_addict has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 546 of 928 (755764)
04-11-2015 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 540 by coffee_addict
04-11-2015 9:25 AM


The distinction between a public and private business makes no sense here. All businesses are both private and public.
Is the bar at the Augusta National Golf Club a public enterprise or a private one? I'm talking about the Club that had no black members until 1990 and that admitted its first female member a couple of years ago.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by coffee_addict, posted 04-11-2015 9:25 AM coffee_addict has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 547 by Modulous, posted 04-11-2015 11:40 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 547 of 928 (755765)
04-11-2015 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 546 by NoNukes
04-11-2015 11:26 AM


Private I believe. Membership by invitation only. 300 members at a time. Wiki says
Location Augusta, Georgia, U.S.
Established 1933
Type Private
Total holes 18

This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by NoNukes, posted 04-11-2015 11:26 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 550 by NoNukes, posted 04-11-2015 12:44 PM Modulous has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 548 of 928 (755768)
04-11-2015 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 536 by NoNukes
04-11-2015 2:32 AM


Re: An Established History
NoNukes writes:
ringo writes:
You should only be able to refuse service to me if I steal your favorite copy of Wrestling Fever.
Which is exactly what my example consisted of with the exception of the exact title of the magazine. WTF???
My point was that you can refuse service to somebody if he steals from you but not if he steals from somebody else. What he does outside your premises is none of your business.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 536 by NoNukes, posted 04-11-2015 2:32 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by NoNukes, posted 04-11-2015 12:43 PM ringo has replied
 Message 557 by dwise1, posted 04-11-2015 8:22 PM ringo has replied
 Message 561 by NoNukes, posted 04-12-2015 1:37 PM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 549 of 928 (755769)
04-11-2015 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 548 by ringo
04-11-2015 12:18 PM


Re: An Established History
My point was that you can refuse service to somebody if he steals from you but not if he steals from somebody else. What he does outside your premises is none of your business.
And my point is that you spent considerable time arguing with me after I gave exactly the example and now you deign to agree with me. What was the point of all that? Did you change your mind.
In fact, all of the examples I presented were of removing people after behavior and not because of some propensity for being rude. Like kicking out a person after he insulted a paying customer. You insisted that my option was to report him to the state 'insult department' or some similar rubbish. Nobody in this discussion has raised the issue of kicking people out without provocation that occurred in the business. I even stated that ex cons were welcome.
I have to conclude that a good number of your posts are arguments for the sake of arguing.
Noted.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by ringo, posted 04-11-2015 12:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by ringo, posted 04-11-2015 1:08 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 550 of 928 (755770)
04-11-2015 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 547 by Modulous
04-11-2015 11:40 AM


Private I believe.
The question was rhetorical. I assumed that many if not most people would know the answer.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by Modulous, posted 04-11-2015 11:40 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 552 by Modulous, posted 04-11-2015 1:22 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 551 of 928 (755771)
04-11-2015 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 549 by NoNukes
04-11-2015 12:43 PM


Re: An Established History
NoNukes writes:
Nobody in this discussion has raised the issue of kicking people out without provocation that occurred in the business.
Nonsense. The thread stems from the question of refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding. Nobody has said anything about gay people misbehaving while ordering a wedding cake. It's all about their behaviour away from the premises.
NoNukes writes:
I have to conclude that a good number of your posts are arguments for the sake of arguing.
Good answer! Good answer! Allow me to comment at length on how much I agree with you....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by NoNukes, posted 04-11-2015 12:43 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by NoNukes, posted 04-11-2015 1:56 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 554 by NoNukes, posted 04-11-2015 1:59 PM ringo has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 552 of 928 (755773)
04-11-2015 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 550 by NoNukes
04-11-2015 12:44 PM


I realize, but my thought was cut short by real life, comment looks a bit odder than intended. What I intended to also convey was that despite being private, the question as to whether we should permit such groups to exclude and which groups it should be permitted to be excluded is not simply settled with drawing the distinction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by NoNukes, posted 04-11-2015 12:44 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 553 of 928 (755774)
04-11-2015 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 551 by ringo
04-11-2015 1:08 PM


Re: An Established History
duplicate
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by ringo, posted 04-11-2015 1:08 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 554 of 928 (755776)
04-11-2015 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 551 by ringo
04-11-2015 1:08 PM


Re: An Established History
Nonsense. The thread stems from the question of refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding.
In case it is not clear, I am referring to the discussion you, I Cat Sci and a few others conducted relate to my hypothetical barbershop. Regardless of where the discussion stems from, you did not limit your remarks to baking cakes.
Allow me to comment at length on how much I agree with you.
That's a win for ringo in a game no one except ringo was playing.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by ringo, posted 04-11-2015 1:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 563 by ringo, posted 04-12-2015 2:24 PM NoNukes has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(3)
Message 555 of 928 (755777)
04-11-2015 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by coffee_addict
04-11-2015 10:46 AM


legislating it is the wrong way to go.
Exclusively, no. But as a part of fixing things, it's essential. There's all sorts of interesting debates we can have about what a society entails, but I've not heard of any definitions which don't include common rules of behaviour. And when the rules are to try to prevent or limit harm being done to people, we make them laws, rather than mere social expectations. Preventing harm to others is important, and there are folks who don't give a stuff about social expectations - so we have to be in a position to bring the force of law to bear.
The US is not England. May I remind you that you guys dumped all your religious nutjobs here back when.
Yeah, I wasn't involved in that.
You can't legislate people's belief system.
Which is not what legislation does. It legislates people's behaviour. They can believe whatever they like.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by coffee_addict, posted 04-11-2015 10:46 AM coffee_addict has not replied

  
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