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Author Topic:   Evidence that the Great Unconformity did not Form Before the Strata above it
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1201 of 1939 (756195)
04-15-2015 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1199 by edge
04-15-2015 11:38 PM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
That post is so bizarre, edge, that I don't know if I can answer it at all. I have to take a break and while I'm gone I appeal to any clear-headed person who might actually exist at EvC, to answer you. I'm not holding my breath, things may well be worse when I return.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1199 by edge, posted 04-15-2015 11:38 PM edge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1202 by dwise1, posted 04-16-2015 4:21 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 1203 by dwise1, posted 04-16-2015 4:57 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 1205 by Admin, posted 04-16-2015 8:55 AM Faith has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1202 of 1939 (756196)
04-16-2015 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1201 by Faith
04-15-2015 11:47 PM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
[ Off-topic content hidden. Click on "peek" to see content. Please, no replies to this message. --Admin ]
Edited by Admin, : Hide off-topic content.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1201 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 11:47 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1204 by Admin, posted 04-16-2015 8:47 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1203 of 1939 (756197)
04-16-2015 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1201 by Faith
04-15-2015 11:47 PM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
[ Off-topic content hidden. Click "peek" to view content. Please, no replies. This post presents an excellent question, but it's a discussion for another thread. ]
Edited by Admin, : Off-topic content hidden.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1201 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 11:47 PM Faith has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13035
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 1204 of 1939 (756198)
04-16-2015 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1202 by dwise1
04-16-2015 4:21 AM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
Hi Dwise1,
Well expressed, but Faith is not the topic.
To everyone:
This thread presents the puzzle of how to debate with someone who rejects much evidence and knowledge. It's a much more difficult problem then just lining up your ducks of evidence and knowledge and presenting them.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1202 by dwise1, posted 04-16-2015 4:21 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1215 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 04-16-2015 12:03 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13035
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 1205 of 1939 (756199)
04-16-2015 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1201 by Faith
04-15-2015 11:47 PM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
Faith writes:
...I appeal to any clear-headed person who might actually exist at EvC...
If I'm discouraging other participants from making comments about you personally, I have to also discourage you from doing the same.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1201 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 11:47 PM Faith has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13035
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 1206 of 1939 (756200)
04-16-2015 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1199 by edge
04-15-2015 11:38 PM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
Hi Edge,
I recognize the effort it takes to compose complete responses that contain all the necessary information in one message, and I know that the demands of time and the desire to not waste one's time are good reasons for slipping into extreme brevity, but I was unable to understand your responses across most of this message, and Faith has indicated she didn't understand much of it either. If it helps, I didn't understand what the request for a reference to 'The Strata' was meant, and I'm guessing it's sarcasm, but I'm not sure. I also didn't understand the comment about gravel deposits. And about the Mississippi River Delta part, I don't think Faith was trying to imply that she believes sediments should be accumulating on the continent, though I should caution that I often find it hard to be sure what Faith is saying.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1199 by edge, posted 04-15-2015 11:38 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1210 by edge, posted 04-16-2015 11:02 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13035
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 1207 of 1939 (756201)
04-16-2015 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1194 by Faith
04-15-2015 10:59 PM


Faith writes:
A small amount will settle on the top of the rock, a smaller amount or possibly nothing at all, would stick to the sides, and the rest would form a horizontally surfaced layer on the bottom of the tank.
Yes, except that the sedimentary layer formed around the perimeter of the rock would be deeper (and therefore tilt upward) because sediments that fall on the rock slip off the rock and fall beside it, and the rock can tend to trap sediments from any currents. Here's a diagram:

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1194 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 10:59 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1217 by Faith, posted 04-16-2015 3:41 PM Admin has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13035
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 1208 of 1939 (756202)
04-16-2015 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1194 by Faith
04-15-2015 10:59 PM


Hi Faith,
This was posted by Coragyps in Message 1191:
Coragyps writes:
Faith has a small tank that could be used for such an experiment. She apparently never used it for an angle of repose experiment because she didn't think the sand I also sent was suitable.
Since you have the necessary equipment, could you perform this experiment:
  • In an empty tank, place sand in the bottom to a depth of about an inch.
  • Slowly add water to the tank to a depth of five or six inches. Add the water slowly enough so as not to disturb the sand, and/or even out the sand again after adding the water.
  • In the center of the tank embed halfway into the sand a small rock a couple inches in diameter.
  • Add sand very slowly and uniformly to the surface of the water until an additional half inch accumulates on the bottom.
You should find that the sand near the rock slopes up its sides and is not horizontal.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1194 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 10:59 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1209 by Faith, posted 04-16-2015 10:50 AM Admin has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1209 of 1939 (756203)
04-16-2015 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1208 by Admin
04-16-2015 10:15 AM


I've expected eventually to do the angle of repose experiment, and I'd be happy to do this one too, but if I haven't done Coragyps' and I skip meals because putting them together is too hard, I can't promise if or when I'll get to it. Has nothing to do with the sand. Don't really have a place where I can set something like this up and leave it either. It would also be nice to be able to photograph the result but I don't have a camera. Sorry.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1208 by Admin, posted 04-16-2015 10:15 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1212 by Admin, posted 04-16-2015 11:24 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1210 of 1939 (756204)
04-16-2015 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1206 by Admin
04-16-2015 9:10 AM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
I recognize the effort it takes to compose complete responses that contain all the necessary information in one message, and I know that the demands of time and the desire to not waste one's time are good reasons for slipping into extreme brevity, but I was unable to understand your responses across most of this message, and Faith has indicated she didn't understand much of it either.
I think I was running out of time last night and got to be a bit brief and perhaps a little short-tempered at the posts I'm responding to.
If it helps, I didn't understand what the request for a reference to 'The Strata' was meant, and I'm guessing it's sarcasm, but I'm not sure.
Yes, I see what you mean. In some recent posts, Faith had started to provide an independent definition of 'strata' and to emphasize the point, she had started referring to it as 'The Strata'. I have no idea what this meant, but I suppose it conforms to her definition of 'real strata'. I wasn't in the mood to entertain further machinations. We have had plenty of those around here lately.
I also didn't understand the comment about gravel deposits.
Faith had mentioned these sedimentary deposits we were discussing are continental in scale. I was pointing out that comparing a gravel deposit to the Coconino (for instance) is not a good comparison. Here is the exchange:
Faith: " ... claims that a hill of gravel is the basis for a layer like those found in The Strata, a teeny tiny little hill of gravel; or The Mississippi River Delta with some layered sediments, about a thousandth of the horizontal extent of most of The Strata on the N. American continent;..."
edge: "Gravel deposits are never continental, even in the geological record. What are you talking about?"(bold added)
So, as you can see, I was uncertain as to what she meant.
And about the Mississippi River Delta part, I don't think Faith was trying to imply that she believes sediments should be accumulating on the continent, though I should caution that I often find it hard to be sure what Faith is saying.
I intended to point out that yes, since most of the continents are very much emergent (above sea level), they are mostly undergoing erosion and continental-scale sedimentary deposits are not the norm.
Here is what I said:
"Ummm, most of the NA continent is above sea level, why would it be accumulating continental-scale sedimentary deposits?"
Faith's next statement is a resurrection of an old argument of hers that the geological column stopped at the end of the flood.
"... and arguments in the past that it's all continuing at the bottom of the ocean, despite a billion or so years of supposed accumulation on land, all said with a straight face in defiance of probability.
Basically, she is saying that sedimentary record has stopped. Our argument is that it has continued, just in a different place. This would be normal for geological processes.
I think people have a hard time seeing long-slow processes and assume that the present is all that there is. And since all we see is erosion going on around us, that the world is fundamentally changed from the great sedimentary formations of the Phanerozoic. We don't see all of the sediments being deposited on the bottom of the ocean, and even the Mississippi River Delta is 'out of sight'.
I refer to a later sentence of hers to show my point:
"The apparent observed fact/ actual evidence is that sedimentation and layering on the scale of The Strata long since ceased."
In fact this may be true, but it is so for two geological reasons:
1. The process of continental-scale deposits requires a long time and the slow process of transgressing/regressing seas, It was probably never visible.
2. Continental-scale deposits require submerged continents.
So, I responded with:
"As expected, Faith."
Intending to mean that things are as I would expect them without modern, continental-scale deposits and that (as commonly occurs with YECs) there is no surprise here. In my very first geology class, this was one topic of discussion and I remember it well.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1206 by Admin, posted 04-16-2015 9:10 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1211 by Faith, posted 04-16-2015 11:19 AM edge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1211 of 1939 (756205)
04-16-2015 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1210 by edge
04-16-2015 11:02 AM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
Basically, she is saying that sedimentary record has stopped. Our argument is that it has continued, just in a different place. This would be normal for geological processes.
This flies in the face of the actual factual EVIDENCE, as I said, which is that The Strata, otherwise known as The Stratigraphic Column or the Geologic Column, do cover continents and supposedly took billions of years to do so, but now -- just on a whim? -- changed their location to "a different place" and we're supposed to consider this "normal?" After a billion years of continent-spanning deposition? Not to mention that, as I said, the examples of continuing deposition are minuscule compared to the extensive slabs of rock that make up The Stratigraphic Column. The gravel reference was to your photo of the gravel you marked to indicate strata.
ABE: I'd also point out that there are too many obstacles on the continents now for continent-spanning slabs to occur any more. Evidence that mountain building and other tectonic effects waited a billion years or so before producing today's bumpy surface.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1210 by edge, posted 04-16-2015 11:02 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1213 by edge, posted 04-16-2015 11:24 AM Faith has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13035
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 1212 of 1939 (756206)
04-16-2015 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1209 by Faith
04-16-2015 10:50 AM


Faith writes:
I've expected eventually to do the angle of repose experiment,...
Until you're able to perform the experiment, perhaps you could respond to the diagram in Message 1207 and explain your rationale for how sediments would fail to accumulate more deeply around the perimeter of the rock.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1209 by Faith, posted 04-16-2015 10:50 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1213 of 1939 (756207)
04-16-2015 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1211 by Faith
04-16-2015 11:19 AM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
This flies in the face of the actual factual EVIDENCE, as I said, which is that The Strata, otherwise known as The Stratigraphic Column or the Geologic Column, do cover continents and supposedly took billions of years to do so, ...
Okay, that's the observation.
... but now -- just on a whim? -- changed their location to "a different place" and we're supposed to consider this "normal?"
Now you have left the realm of evidence and injected a personal wish.
After a billion years of continent-spanning deposition?
How long do you think it should be?
Not to mention that, as I said, the examples of continuing deposition are minuscule compared to the extensive slabs of rock that make up The Stratigraphic Column.
I have explained the reason for this. I mean, isn't it pretty obvious that you cannot deposit a basal Cambrian (Tapeats, for instance) type of sandstone across the continent while the continent is above sea level?
I'm not getting your problem here.
ABE: I'd also point out that there are too many obstacles on the continents now for continent-spanning slabs to occur any more.
Yes, that's what I said. The continents are above sea level.
Evidence that mountain building and other tectonic effects waited a billion years or so before producing today's bumpy surface.
That is not reasonable. You don't know how many tectonic events there have been.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1211 by Faith, posted 04-16-2015 11:19 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1214 by Faith, posted 04-16-2015 11:49 AM edge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1214 of 1939 (756208)
04-16-2015 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1213 by edge
04-16-2015 11:24 AM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
It's time for me to leave this futile discussion. I absolutely reject your system as fantasy and you have the same attitude to mine. I just happened to read a bit in the Britannica on the Triassic period, full of pure imaginative nonsense they treat as fact, about imaginary climate, imaginary animal life -- limited to what happens to be found in a slab of rock with fossilized dead things in it, that was most certainly deposited in the Flood. But this fantastic nonsense is the "science" you insist be respected and that you insult Creationists for rejecting. You're impatient because I refuse to accept any of that, and I'm tired of your dismissive impatience.
Yes, deposition of sandstone does require being underwater. Flood required for all of it, ALL the strata all over the world. Flood ended, deposition ended. That's what the EVIDENCE shows.
OK by you if a billion years of continual deposition just comes to a screeching halt, but to my mind that is outrageous denial
In the Grand Canyon there was no tectonic activity for the entire Phanerozoic Era.
In my opinion I've made my case over and over and over. You'll never acknowledge any of it.
I've had enough edge.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1213 by edge, posted 04-16-2015 11:24 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1216 by edge, posted 04-16-2015 12:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2400 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 1215 of 1939 (756211)
04-16-2015 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1204 by Admin
04-16-2015 8:47 AM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
Admin writes:
This thread presents the puzzle of how to debate with someone who rejects much evidence and knowledge. It's a much more difficult problem then just lining up your ducks of evidence and knowledge and presenting them.
Very well put.
JB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1204 by Admin, posted 04-16-2015 8:47 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
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