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Author Topic:   Evidence that the Great Unconformity did not Form Before the Strata above it
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Message 1696 of 1939 (757454)
05-09-2015 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1693 by Faith
05-08-2015 4:53 PM


Sedimentation Video
Here's a video that includes a sedimentation tank experiment, it's set to begin at just the right time. Skip the sound unless you know Spanish. This is a different experiment than the horizontality experiment I mentioned just previously, but it's extremely instructive nonetheless. It releases sediment suddenly in successive waves, perhaps to simulate storm events or sedimentary epochs, I'm not sure, and it shows how the sediments deposit:
Watch the video until the end of the sedimentation tank portion. The final result should look shockingly familiar:
No intrusions or tectonic forces necessary.
Edited by Admin, : Clarify.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1697 of 1939 (757455)
05-09-2015 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1696 by Admin
05-09-2015 9:22 AM


Re: Sedimentation Video
Here's a video that includes a sedimentation tank experiment, it's set to begin at just the right time. Skip the sound unless you know Spanish. This is a different experiment than the horizontality experiment I mentioned just previously, but it's extremely instructive nonetheless. It releases sediment suddenly in successive waves, perhaps to simulate storm events or sedimentary epochs, I'm not sure, and it shows how the sediments deposit:
Watch the video until the end of the sedimentation tank portion. The final result should look shockingly familiar:
A good find. We should keep this demonstration handy for future reference...
ABE: The only difference I can see with this demonstraton and the situation in the GC is that the Tapeats is a transgressive sand deposit; but the detailed motion of sand grains would be comparable. /ABE
I had thought about flowing water forming sand bar-type deposits, but never about density currents or storm surges forming those non-horizontal, draped sand deposits.
It looks like as long as there is some kind of existing topography, forming drapes with pinch-outs and a sagging appearance is rather trivial in sedimentary systems.
This should overcome some of Faith's doubts regarding what sedimentation can do.
So, we are back to the original question. What is the evidence that overturns the mainstream view and supports a tectonic origin of the unconformity surface?
ABE: The only difference I can see with this demonstraton and the situation in the GC is that the Tapeats is a transgressive sand deposit; however, I don't see a real problem here
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

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Admin
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(1)
Message 1698 of 1939 (757456)
05-09-2015 10:11 AM


Sedimentation Transport Video
It was fascinating to see sedimentation transport occurring in real time in this video, it starts around 15 seconds in:
This shows that sediment transport requires flowing water on a mild slope.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 1699 of 1939 (757458)
05-09-2015 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1696 by Admin
05-09-2015 9:22 AM


Re: Sedimentation Video
Great find Percy!! This is exactly the kind of demonstration I looked and looked for. Too bad it is in Spanish, it looks like there is more good information in the rest of the video as well.
I especially like this image
It shows the directionality of the flow much like this image
What I would have done as a demonstration would have given an even distribution across the whole system and so would not have captured the directionality that is demonstrated here, just the layering effect. So this is much better.
They use a slightly different system than would have formed the Tapeats, since the Tapeats was supposed to be a transgression, and they use a silt which would be transported much further than sand would be, but it captures the general idea very well! Of course, one source we looked at suggested that the Tapeats sea was actually a deeper system than previously thought, so maybe not so far off.
Excellent! I'm not sure it is even necessary to do the experiment now... I guess we'll see what Faith thinks of this.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2373 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 1700 of 1939 (757460)
05-09-2015 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1697 by edge
05-09-2015 9:43 AM


Re: Sedimentation Video
edge writes:
This should overcome some of Faith's doubts regarding what sedimentation can do.
Are you kidding? Have you not learned anything? Everything on those videos confirms her assertions and fits far better with the YEC and flood scenarios than the OE theory.
JB

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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2373 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 1701 of 1939 (757461)
05-09-2015 10:58 AM


Great video find
Awesome find on those vids -- by watching those you'd come to the conclusion that scientists actually do experiments to learn and support their theories. That's just weird.
JB

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1702 of 1939 (757464)
05-09-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1700 by ThinAirDesigns
05-09-2015 10:56 AM


Re: Sedimentation Video
Are you kidding? Have you not learned anything? Everything on those videos confirms her assertions and fits far better with the YEC and flood scenarios than the OE theory.
Silly me...
I might just emphasize here that the facts shown support a sedimentary origin for draped sediments and non-horizontality of some deposition.
We can quibble over the details, but both of these facts fly directly in the face of Faith's proposition.
Is this debate going anywhere?

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1703 of 1939 (757466)
05-09-2015 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1695 by Admin
05-09-2015 8:52 AM


sedimentation on slope
I'm fine with anybody wanting to do experiments. I can also do my own later if it works out that way.
All this stuff about depositing on a slope seems to forget that we're talking about forming a layer of even thickness like all those in the strata formations. The strata in that road cut and also the other road cut edge posted: The question is did the layer deposit that way or was it tilted or otherwise deformed later? If you can form one such layer can you also form a stack of evenly thick multiple layers on a slope as is shown in those tilted road cuts. Just getting some sediment to stick to a slope doesn't address this.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1704 of 1939 (757469)
05-09-2015 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1696 by Admin
05-09-2015 9:22 AM


Re: Sedimentation Video
That's a great video and I've watched it more than once. I also know a little Spanish and a few times they referred to "capas horizontales" or horizontal layers. That was the final result in the tank experiment. I wish I could understand what he's saying between 7 and 7:30 more clearly.
The first few layers did somewhat drape so that was interesting, but they also filled in the low places. After it was all covered up to a level point then they deposited horizontally, no tilting there. Although you want me to see the result as like the McKee drawing the only similarity I see is the initial draping. There is no filling of the low places in the drawing, or in any of the other drawings either; and there is nothing in the experiment like the drape-upon-drape in the drawing. That drape-upon-drape effect is more apparent in one of the other drawings as I recall but I couldn't find that illustration.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1705 of 1939 (757471)
05-09-2015 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1699 by herebedragons
05-09-2015 10:22 AM


Re: Sedimentation Video
Well, what I think of it? I don't think the experiment matches the McKee drawings very well at all. You get some drape but you don't have the drape upon drape effect of the drawings, and the drawings don't show the sand filling in the low places as the "fine sediment" does in the experiment. I think there's plenty of room for more experiments. Go for it if you'd like.

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Admin
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Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1706 of 1939 (757474)
05-09-2015 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1703 by Faith
05-09-2015 12:58 PM


Re: sedimentation on slope
Faith writes:
All this stuff about depositing on a slope seems to forget that we're talking about forming a layer of even thickness like all those in the strata formations.
No, it isn't forgotten at all. The entire point of the discussion about horizontality is to get you to accept that layers like those in the road cut can be deposited on slopes.
The strata in that road cut and also the other road cut edge posted: The question is did the layer deposit that way or was it tilted or otherwise deformed later?
Not really. Concerning horizontality, the question is whether by necessity the layers in those road cuts could only have been originally horizontal when deposited.
If you can form one such layer can you also form a stack of evenly thick multiple layers on a slope as is shown in those tilted road cuts.
You're not thinking this through. If you can form one sloped layer atop another sloped layer, then the top of the new sloped layer is just another sloped surface on which another layer can be deposited.
Just getting some sediment to stick to a slope doesn't address this.
"Stick" is the wrong word. For the most part sediment doesn't slide down a slope to the lowest point (unless it's too steep) because of normal everyday friction. What in the world makes you think it could?
You've taken an absurd position, and I'm only interacting this much in the thread so that we can get past this and resume discussion of the actual topic. Your message is mostly just a reassertion of your views and still provides no rationale. What makes you think sediments can only deposit horizontally? What is the process you thought through to arrive at this conclusion? There don't really need to be experiments, only a belated realization by you that you have no idea how some incredibly simple and obvious things about the real world really work.
Your message gives no indication that you thought at all about the arguments I made about sand not being able to flow down a slope, that if it did beaches would quickly empty of sand. I asked you to think about why any newly deposited grain of sand would have any greater likelihood of sliding down slope than any of the other grains that were already there that it fell next to.
So why don't you tell me your thinking about this a little bit. If sand slides down slope to the lowest point, why are there beaches? If sand slides down to the lowest point, what causes the newly deposited grain of sand to move down slope when all the other grains of sand that were already there didn't do so?
Edited by Admin, : Grammar.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1707 of 1939 (757481)
05-09-2015 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1706 by Admin
05-09-2015 2:42 PM


Re: sedimentation on slope
Concerning horizontality, the question is whether by necessity the layers in those road cuts could only have been originally horizontal when deposited.
OK, I'll try to keep your wording in mind.
If you can form one such layer can you also form a stack of evenly thick multiple layers on a slope as is shown in those tilted road cuts.
You're not thinking this through. If you can form one sloped layer atop another sloped layer, then the top of the new sloped layer is just another sloped surface on which another layer can be deposited.
OK. ABE: I think I had in mind that you could get something approximating a layer by a fluke but that it wouldn't hold up through successive depositions. /ABE
Just getting some sediment to stick to a slope doesn't address this.
"Stick" is the wrong word. For the most part sediment doesn't slide down a slope to the lowest point (unless it's too steep) because of normal everyday friction. What in the world makes you think it could?
Well, even that experiment in the video shows the sediment settling more deeply in the lower areas while only lightly coating the slopes and peaks.
What makes you think sediments can only deposit horizontally? What is the process you thought through to arrive at this conclusion? There don't really need to be experiments, only a belated realization by you that you have no idea how some incredibly simple and obvious things about the real world really work.
Well, honestly, the main thing is that I consider Steno's principle to be sensible and realistic, certainly no less so than his other principles, such as superposition which nobody seems to feel needs to be rethought. So all this insistence on forming actual layers of the sort seen in the Grand Canyon or the two road cuts at issue at the moment, does hit me as some kind of trickery, even a violation of nature. It's not that sediment won't deposit on a slope, it's that Steno's principle isn't about that, it's about how the evenly thick layers formed. So if that's what you are aiming to prove, fine, let the experiments begin, because I WILL need to see experiments for something that feels to me like a violation of Nature. And the more you all accuse me of that violation the more cynical I get.
Your message gives no indication that you thought at all about the arguments I made about sand not being able to flow down a slope, that if it did beaches would quickly empty of sand. I asked you to think about why any newly deposited grain of sand would have any greater likelihood of sliding down slope than any of the other grains that were already there that it fell next to.
You've made your point. Nevertheless the sediments in the video experiment DID pool in the lower places as I would expect.
So why don't you tell me your thinking about this a little bit. If sand slides down slope to the lowest point, why are there beaches? If sand slides down to the lowest point, what causes the newly deposited grain of sand to move down slope when all the other grains of sand that were already there didn't do so?
I never claimed anything along these lines. I'm thinking only about the formation of Strata and while at some angles sediments probably wouldn't fall down the slope and pool at the bottom, at other angles they would, and perhaps the more so in water, and even where they don't I don't expect to see anything resembling Strata.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1708 of 1939 (757491)
05-09-2015 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1703 by Faith
05-09-2015 12:58 PM


Re: sedimentation on slope
All this stuff about depositing on a slope seems to forget that we're talking about forming a layer of even thickness like all those in the strata formations.
And you seem to forget that you said sediments could not be deposited on a slope.
I'm not sure what you mean by "all those in the strata formations".
The strata in that road cut and also the other road cut edge posted: The question is did the layer deposit that way or was it tilted or otherwise deformed later? If you can form one such layer can you also form a stack of evenly thick multiple layers on a slope as is shown in those tilted road cuts. Just getting some sediment to stick to a slope doesn't address this.
Actually, I read your post correctly, all it was intended to show is that strata can be deposited on a sloping surface. It is a bonus that you can see the low areas being filled in and the upper layers becoming more horizontal and even.
That's kind of like the McKee diagrams and the road cut photos.
The only commentary on the mechanism by the video is that inclined layering can be accomplished by sedimentary processes, and tectonism is not necessary.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1709 of 1939 (757492)
05-09-2015 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1707 by Faith
05-09-2015 4:47 PM


Re: sedimentation on slope
None of Steno's principles are absolute. For superposition, see the Lewis Overthrust.
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1710 of 1939 (757494)
05-09-2015 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1708 by edge
05-09-2015 5:43 PM


Re: sedimentation on slope
And you seem to forget that you said sediments could not be deposited on a slope.
But what I've had in mind is EVENNESS of deposition, evenness of thickness, such as we see in the Grand Canyon strata and also in these road cut pictures. That is what I doubt and would expect an experiment to aim to show. The video experiment does not show that, it shows sediment pooling in the low places and lightly covering the slopes, not at all anything like an even thickness, but then its design wouldn't work for that anyway.
What is needed to show if evenly distributed layering is possible on a slope is an experiment in which the base is a continuously angled surface like those in the road cut pictures.

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