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Author Topic:   If evolution is true, where did flying creatures come from?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 136 of 225 (757597)
05-11-2015 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Faith
05-11-2015 5:20 AM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
It's really rather strange to claim there is no evidence for such obvious facts as that you can get all the enormous variety of traits from simple sexual recombination. Even if mutation provided the genetic stuff it would still be a fact that all the enormous variety of traits come from simple sexual recombination of the genetic stuff.
Wrong. We know that at least some variation comes directly from mutation. Examples have been provided of exactly that, and no denial from you overcomes that obstacle.
Claiming your point to be obvious is not an argument. Provide some evidence.
quote:
... Likewise, there are degrees of dominance and recessiveness with some traits.
With some traits? How does this help you? With some traits there is complete dominance.
If you have some evidence, please provide it, otherwise your assumption that mutations can play no role in evolution because of the way dogs are bred is a losing argument. Your argument to the contrary requires a mechanism for which you have provided no evidence. None.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 5:20 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 137 of 225 (757598)
05-11-2015 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Faith
05-11-2015 5:39 AM


Re: You do have to follow the argument
You assume mutations are the source of diversity, I believe they are instead a destructive process that destroys functioning genes and produces disease. This makes them a product of the Fall, which accumulates over time, which is why there's much more disease now than there could have been on the ark.
1) You have no evidence of what disease existed on the ark. The Bible is silent on the matter. The animals were only on the ark for a few months anyways.
2) Your belief is not proof. You claim you have made some point over and over again, and now you admit that the basis of your claim is merely your belief. Perhaps you will understand why people take issue when you declare that you've won a debate?
3) The result of at least a few mutations is well known to be something other than disease. You are arguing against the evidence.
I don't know how a gene gets many alleles, it's something I think about.
Isn't this pretty much central to your unsupported argument? You claim to know that the process does not involve mutation. How do you know that?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 5:39 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 141 of 225 (757606)
05-11-2015 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Faith
05-10-2015 8:17 PM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
It was the mixing together by inbreeding over many generations of the new gene frequencies they shared as a group, in comparison to the population at large, that eventually resulted in their characteristic appearance.
Yeah, but just where did that diversity come from? You seem to believe that it comes from some kind of super genome rather than from diversity generated by mutations. What reason is there to believe that? Is there a single bit of genetic evidence for such a thing in humans or dogs or cats?
If evolution works as claimed in the theory of evolution, then the issue is not whether some subset of the species (like races or breeds) is less diverse than the entire set. Of course that must be true. The question is whether humans as a whole must be less diverse than the species they evolved from. Not as a subset but as a whole. Because humans of all races and hues are inter fertile there is always the possibility to reintegrate any diversity.
Which brings us to another of your errors. Post speciation mutations do not interfere with generating humans as you suggests. We can look at all of the variations we see among humans currently and ask, if that particular variation did indeed result from mutation, did it interfere with that particular person being a human? And the answer is no. Even if the person is no longer considered a member of a particular race, something which we would not claim for social reasons, the person still human. The mutation does not interfere with him being distinct from the pre homo sapiens species that he came from.
Yes, a variation in some poodle might well prevent some pup from winning 'best in breed', but unless that variation prevents the pup from being a dog at all, then mutation does add to the variation in the dog population. And that is sufficient variation for evolution to work on unless humans prevent the new dog from mating.
So far none of your 'ends to evolution' seem to work. It is of course possible to come up with scenarios where diversity is cut off from a population and then lost when the animals can no longer interbreed, but nothing prevents mutations from causing more diversity in either population.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 05-10-2015 8:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 1:48 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 144 of 225 (757616)
05-11-2015 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Faith
05-11-2015 1:48 PM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
Perhaps you haven't followed this argument in a while. There's nothing super about the original genome that I postulate except it's a lot healthier than today's. It had a lot more functioning genes than we have because 95% of them have died since the Flood, perhaps a few before the Flood. It had much more heterozygosity for many more traits, so that a big bottleneck like the Flood didn't reduce it all to fixed loci like today's cheetah and elephant seal, but still had a lot more genetic possibilities that could be played out in microevolution. A perfectly normal genome without all the death in it we see today.
That's a lot more than just health. And it's just a postulate. If you rely on that postulate without evidence then you cannot prove anything. I don't see in your post any indication that I or the other posters misunderstand your position. Since you are suggesting that you have proven your point, it is enough for me to simply point out places where you have made assumptions.
Maybe the earth's population was never reduced to just eight humans, three of whom were direct descendants to two of the others. There is then no need for any of the shenanigans you postulate. It appears Coyote is right. We aren't getting any science from you. We're getting a sermon.
And of course during the discussion evidence that new variations have been the result of mutation has been provided. I think the ball to demonstrate your contrary approach is squarely in your court. It has been there for something approaching a decade.
And that is sufficient variation for evolution to work on unless humans prevent the new dog from mating.
Sure if it happened as you say it could be selected. The odds are it wouldn't be but it could be, so then it would get worked into your breed over a few generations and you'd be back at square one with a slightly different breed with no further ability to evolve.
If you want to convince me that the 'odds are', then show me the math. I'm surely not going to take your word for that. And besides all of that, I still have the diversity from other breeds to draw on.
You claim in every discussion that nobody gets your point. The genesis for your claim is, in my opinion, that you do not follow the consequences of what you propose. Most of the time people are several steps ahead of you when it comes to coming up with scenarios which disprove your ideas. We don't have to wait for you to actually state those scenarios when they follow from your ideas.
If, in fact, evolution is a dead end for the reasons you give, then dogs as a whole must be less diverse than the wolves specie or species that they come from. Yet they are not. You can speculate all you want on 'much more heterozygosity' at the beginning, but the creation of diversity by mutation over time explains the variety we see on earth extremely well. And there is no evidence of this super genome you discuss. Such a thing isn't even necessary if we accept special creation and do away with evolution other than kinds It is instead solely an assumption, and an uneeded one, for displacing evolution.
In short a belief and not an argument against evolution. Get some evidence.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 1:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 3:43 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 145 of 225 (757617)
05-11-2015 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Faith
05-11-2015 1:21 PM


Re: You do have to follow the argument
A geneticist isn't trying to account for how extra alleles got into one gene locus on the ark.
That's right. A geneticist is neither trying to disprove or prove such a thing. The geneticist is instead following the evidence. You on the other hand are highly motivated to make stuff up and ignore the evidence.
I'm not sure why you think your statement is a solution to anything. It is instead confirmation that you don't have any proof or evidence that evolution cannot work.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 1:21 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 153 of 225 (757637)
05-11-2015 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Faith
05-11-2015 3:43 PM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
It's a very reasonable postulate, and what's funny is that mutation as the source of viable genetic material has NO evidence at all, is pure assumption but that doesn't bother you, only MY postulate bothers you.
You have yet to challenge the evidence offered to you regarding several specific instances of mutation generated variation. So yes there is evidence supporting my position that mutation can be a source of variation and diversity. The hilarious part of your statement above is that at times you even admit that such is the case.
But with regard to your assumptions, since you are the one claiming to have proven something, then yes I do have the right to challenge any naked assumptions you make. An unanswered challenge of that sort means that you have not provided the proof you claim to have provided.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 3:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 167 of 225 (757658)
05-11-2015 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Faith
05-11-2015 6:04 PM


Re: Traits governed by more than one gene
Some traits are determined by the combined effect of more than one pair of genes. These are referred to as polygenic, or continuous, traits.
Some traits, Faith. No one disagrees with this. Unfortunately for you, your claims your claims require that all traits must be determined in this way.
ABE:
You actually quoted this from a section called 'Exceptions to single inheritance'. Wow.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 6:04 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 8:29 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 225 (757662)
05-11-2015 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
05-11-2015 8:29 PM


Re: Traits governed by more than one gene
although I don't know what your "wow" is all about.
And I never said ALL traits are governed by multiple genes. Were, when the genome was complete. Could be, though, why not?
I cannot quite parse out the meaning of the second of your three sentences quoted above. But, yes you did claim that all variety is caused by combinations of genes. That means no single gene dominance. It is also your method for denying the effect of mutations. So yeah, you are stuck with a position that the references you cite say is not correct.
Aren't we done here?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 8:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 176 of 225 (757668)
05-12-2015 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Faith
05-12-2015 12:08 AM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
You can have lots of fuel in the mother population but if it's not forming new subspecies then you don't have evolution.
Your statement is wrong on several fronts.
Once a subspecies forms from a mother population, added mutations can increase diversity in the new subspecies. You've tried to argue that this destroys the subspecies but you are wrong. Sub species can, and in the wild do have diverse members. In this way, species differ completely from breeds which are artificially maintained to be homogeneous even after they are created. Left to themselves, there'd be no such thing as collies and poodles in a few decades. We'd have a bunch of mutts.
In the wild though, without some culling we'd get mutation and drift of new traits in a population. Eventually some change in the environment might act on some of that diversity. But at that point the new species might well be more diverse than the population it came from. And that first population itself might be more diverse. I note here that you seldom mention genetic drift as a process even though it is vital to the theory of evolution. Why is that?
The second front on which you are wrong is that evolution is the change in genetic makeup in a population over time. Evolution occurs even when speciation is not happening.
Your case is pure nonsense, and everybody here including the posters who arrived five minutes ago can see the problems with it at a glance. Nature does not of necessity act to reduce diversity although such a thing can result. Nature instead promotes survival strategies. Lots of them. That's why evolution can explain the process of common descent from simple beginning. On the other hand reducing diversity is absolutely the goal of what breeders do. What breeders do cannot explain earth's diversity.
FWIW you've already admitted to enough so that your statements are a concession of the entire argument. At a minimum, you've admitted that you don't have proof, but belief. And secondly, you've admitted enough about mutations to allow evolution as described by the theory of evolution to work. I'm curious to see how you attempt to deny your admissions so that you can pretend to have won this argument six months from now.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : More stuff.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 05-12-2015 12:08 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 05-12-2015 12:47 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(4)
Message 187 of 225 (757684)
05-12-2015 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Faith
05-12-2015 12:47 AM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
I'm not at all surprised if people can't get it and think they see problems in it, because everybody has been indoctrinated in the completely opposite point of view.
So back to simple denial again, is it.
Yes, and if new traits are forming slowly within a population over time that's evolution too, and that too requires the loss of genetic diversity. It's just easier to grasp what's happening where subspecies are actively being formed, to see how the reduction of genetic diversity is required to bring about new traits.
You claim that new genetic traits in a population equals a loss of diversity in the population? That is of course impossible. Since only some of the population is affected, when new traits show up the population via mutation, the population becomes more genetically diverse. By any definition.
This is why the principle of drift never appears or gets discussed in your posts. It is a deal breaker that utterly wrecks your position. Most genetic variation does not lead immediately to speciation because it is either neutral or deleterious. But the neutral mutations may later lead to speciation if those changes become beneficial in a new environment. At that point, however, the original species has grown in diversity beyond its beginnings. And even the sub species may well be more diverse than was the original species at its forming (a prior speciation eent) although it must be less diverse than the entire species at the time of the latest speciation event.
Your position must be that drift does not happen.
And of course since evolution happens to populations and not individuals, it is the population diversity that matters. It isn't that nobody understands your position or that they've been indoctrinated against your position. It is that your position does not make sense. Even you cannot even keep straight what you've said.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 05-12-2015 12:47 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 189 of 225 (757686)
05-12-2015 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Faith
05-11-2015 9:53 PM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
Could I ask you first of all why "genetic change" is needed
Such a thing is needed as a source of variation because without it, evolution would stall out at some point. Your question is irrelevant, really, because genetic change does occur regardless of whether it is needed.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 9:53 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 225 (757721)
05-12-2015 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Denisova
05-12-2015 9:57 AM


Re: Traits governed by more than one gene
As I said, it's often a little bit difficult for me to set the correct tone when translating from Dutch to English
It is difficult for native English speakers. Telling someone politely that they haven't really made an argument when they think they have isn't going to come across as a compliment.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Denisova, posted 05-12-2015 9:57 AM Denisova has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 219 of 225 (758459)
05-26-2015 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Belcher
05-26-2015 2:07 AM


I remember my dad one time giving me a 'firm' answer about how adding salt to an ice mixture helped ice cream freeze. 'See the salt encourages the ice to throw off its coldness..' he began.
I had just a chemistry course talking about the phenomenon of freezing point depression and a physics course covering some thermodynamics, so I interrupted my dad during his first sentence. But Dad was quite firm in sticking with his answer, and I quickly dropped my misguided attempt to correct him. Firm answer wins! Luckily, I didn't need the answer for any real purpose.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Belcher, posted 05-26-2015 2:07 AM Belcher has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-26-2015 12:20 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
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