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Author Topic:   If evolution is true, where did flying creatures come from?
Admin
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Posts: 13084
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Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 196 of 225 (757693)
05-12-2015 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Faith
05-12-2015 12:08 AM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
Faith writes:
Evolution doesn't come to an end for lack of genetic material, it comes to an end because the processes that bring it about require the reduction of genetic material.
It's becoming clear now that this is what you want to discuss in this thread. I'll continue reading this thread to the end, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to rule that there should be a new thread proposal to discuss the idea that diversity was greatest when life first began, that no new and advantageous genetic material has been created since, and that each new species has had less genetic variation than any of its ancestor species. If you'd like to continue the discussion then you (or someone) might want to begin preparing an opening post now.
An alternative to a new thread might be to look through old threads and see if you can find one where this was the topic.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Admin
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Posts: 13084
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Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 197 of 225 (757695)
05-12-2015 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Denisova
05-12-2015 5:56 AM


Re: Traits governed by more than one gene
Denisova writes:
And I didn't meant "do your homework" to denigrate you, I just asked "do your homework", which, as a non-native speaker of English, I thought it is also to be understood just as a saying "May I recommend that you cut to the chase and present your argument for this now" (which were YOUR words).
Just for future reference, that's not an interpretation of "do your homework" that I think most English speakers would agree with. It has a couple possible contexts. There's a positive one, as in "It was apparent in her presentation that she had done her homework." But in the way you used it it means something closer to "You're uninformed" or "You're wrong" or both, and it *is* a put down.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 13084
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 198 of 225 (757696)
05-12-2015 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Denisova
05-12-2015 7:18 AM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
Denisova writes:
2. the fact that after the split into two genetically isolated genomes, both of those sub-genomes take away only a subset of the original, total genome DOES NOT detract ANYTHING of the simple fact that there was an initial gain in genetic diversity BEFORE the split, which is what evolution theory ACTUALLY requires.
...
The OBJECT of evolution theory is to explain speciation. When speciation occurs, there MUST be an initial gain in genetic diversity.
Concerning a gain in genetic diversity for speciation, characterizations of "requires" and "must" might be a bit too strong. You're describing the typical or common way for speciation to occur, but there's a richness in possibility that this ignores.
One of the difficulties encountered in discussing this topic with Faith in the past is that a reduction in genetic diversity with no associated prior increase *is* a possible path to speciation. Where Faith differs with everyone else is in believing it is the only possible path to speciation.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 13084
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 199 of 225 (757697)
05-12-2015 8:54 AM


Moderator Ruling: Current Discussion is Off Topic
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for the recent discussion, but I'm going to rule it off-topic. Someone should propose a new thread to discuss this over at Proposed New Topics. I think I characterized Faith's position pretty well a couple messages ago:
Diversity was greatest when life first began, no new and advantageous genetic material has been created since, and each new species has had less genetic variation than any of its ancestor species.
Anyone who would like to discuss the evolution of flight, please carry on.
AbE: A good candidate thread for resuming discussion of Faith's topic is Evolution Requires Reduction in Genetic Diversity. Some discussion has already picked up there.
Edited by Admin, : AbE.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Denisova
Member (Idle past 3324 days)
Posts: 96
From: The Earth Clod....
Joined: 05-10-2015


Message 200 of 225 (757700)
05-12-2015 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Admin
05-12-2015 6:37 AM


Re: Moderator Clarification
Denisova writes:
As soon as speciation happened, we will now have 2 species with different and separated genomes. And evidently each genome inevitably will be a *subset* of the original combined genome of the ancestral species.
I'd like to make sure that your meaning is clear for everyone. Here you say that the genome of each new species will be a subset of the parent species, but your previous paragraph talks about genetic change (alleles and genes will be both created and lost in each subpopulation), so in the end each subpopulation's genome will actually be both a subset and a superset of the parent species. Is that what you meant?
Thanks for lending me your sharp eyes!
I already tried to clarify this point in my post #163, especially by the example in the second part of it.
The creation or loss of alleles and genes, responsible for the genetic isolation of the subpopulations and therefore the cause of the split or the ancestral genome, happened BEFORE the split.
At the very moment of the split, two specialised species emerged.
"Specialisation" means by definition that NONE of the newly emerged species has "taken away" ALL of the genes and alleles which were present in the combined ancestral genome at the moment of the split.
Species A most likely resembles the initial genetic diversity of the original ancestral species before even any divergence occurred (part from the usual "portion" of genetic drift) - because it continued to live in the old environment and didn't have much or any reason to change. But the genome of species A DIFFERS from the combined ancestral genome at the moment of split. So genome A is a subset of the combined, ancestral genome at the moment of the split.
Species B "takes away" (most of the) the genetic change since the start of the divergence. Because this species consist of the original subpopulation of the ancestral species that actually underwent the environmental changes which gave rise to the genetic change. Species B also has a genome that differs from the combined ancestral genome at the moment of the split. This implies that the genome of species B is a subset of the combined ancestral genome at the moment of split.

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Denisova
Member (Idle past 3324 days)
Posts: 96
From: The Earth Clod....
Joined: 05-10-2015


Message 201 of 225 (757701)
05-12-2015 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Admin
05-12-2015 8:29 AM


Re: Traits governed by more than one gene
Just for future reference, that's not an interpretation of "do your homework" that I think most English speakers would agree with. It has a couple possible contexts. There's a positive one, as in "It was apparent in her presentation that she had done her homework." But in the way you used it it means something closer to "You're uninformed" or "You're wrong" or both, and it *is* a put down.
OK, point taken.
As I said, it's often a little bit difficult for me to set the correct tone when translating from Dutch to English. Guess I learned a bit of English here....

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Denisova
Member (Idle past 3324 days)
Posts: 96
From: The Earth Clod....
Joined: 05-10-2015


Message 202 of 225 (757703)
05-12-2015 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Admin
05-12-2015 8:49 AM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
Concerning a gain in genetic diversity for speciation, characterizations of "requires" and "must" might be a bit too strong. You're describing the typical or common way for speciation to occur, but there's a richness in possibility that this ignores.
One of the difficulties encountered in discussing this topic with Faith in the past is that a reduction in genetic diversity with no associated prior increase *is* a possible path to speciation. Where Faith differs with everyone else is in believing it is the only possible path to speciation.
I fully agree!
But I still was following Faith's argumentations - for sake of not complicating the discussion too much.
I'm afraid that reduction in genetic diversity with no associated prior increase being a possible path to speciation indeed is not serving Faith's claims well!

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Denisova
Member (Idle past 3324 days)
Posts: 96
From: The Earth Clod....
Joined: 05-10-2015


Message 203 of 225 (757704)
05-12-2015 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Admin
05-12-2015 8:54 AM


Re: Moderator Ruling: Current Discussion is Off Topic
Thanks for the recent discussion, but I'm going to rule it off-topic. Someone should propose a new thread to discuss this over at Proposed New Topics. I think I characterized Faith's position pretty well a couple messages ago:
Faith writes:
Diversity was greatest when life first began, no new and advantageous genetic material has been created since, and each new species has had less genetic variation than any of its ancestor species.
Anyone who would like to discuss the evolution of flight, please carry on.
AbE: A good candidate thread for resuming discussion of Faith's topic is Evolution Requires Reduction in Genetic Diversity. Some discussion has already picked up there.
Indeed I also now notice it's off topic.
Actually, i started this line of debate in the "Evolution Requires Reduction in Genetic Diversity" thread but for some strange reason we end up here. Maybe it was my fault or maybe I followed a lead by Faith.
So I suggest we just continue where it belongs: in the "Evolution Requires Reduction in Genetic Diversity" thread. I don't think we have to start a new thread.
Edited by Admin, : Fix quoted portion.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1512 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 204 of 225 (757706)
05-12-2015 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
05-08-2015 4:42 PM


Evolution produces new alleles - the evidence is there
Moved to Evolution Requires Reduction in Genetic Diversity Message 413 to keep this thread topic on evolution of flight
Edited by RAZD, : moved post to more appropriate thread
use peek to see or go to link above
Edited by RAZD, : sp in hidden text

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1512 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 205 of 225 (757716)
05-12-2015 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Admin
05-12-2015 6:37 AM


Re: Moderator Clarification
Just caught up. Been a tad sick and so dosed up on meds and sleepy.
I see lots of ground covered since my previous post, and yes it is off topic: do you want me to move my post to the other thread?
Thanks

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Admin
Director
Posts: 13084
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 206 of 225 (757719)
05-12-2015 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by RAZD
05-12-2015 12:19 PM


Re: Moderator Clarification
Whatever you'd like to do is fine. You can post a copy over there, or just let Faith know you posted a reply here, though in that case Faith should still reply over there.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 225 (757721)
05-12-2015 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Denisova
05-12-2015 9:57 AM


Re: Traits governed by more than one gene
As I said, it's often a little bit difficult for me to set the correct tone when translating from Dutch to English
It is difficult for native English speakers. Telling someone politely that they haven't really made an argument when they think they have isn't going to come across as a compliment.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 208 of 225 (757728)
05-12-2015 5:55 PM


I overused my eyes yesterday, have a horrible eyestrain headache and have to be off the internet at least until tomorrow, hope not longer. I'm curious to find out if Denisova ever said anything coherent, and I'll try to deal with the rest of RAZD's post.

Replies to this message:
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Denisova
Member (Idle past 3324 days)
Posts: 96
From: The Earth Clod....
Joined: 05-10-2015


(2)
Message 209 of 225 (757760)
05-13-2015 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Faith
05-12-2015 5:55 PM


I overused my eyes yesterday, have a horrible eyestrain headache and have to be off the internet at least until tomorrow, hope not longer. I'm curious to find out if Denisova ever said anything coherent, and I'll try to deal with the rest of RAZD's post.
Take you time!
Your health is more important than the evcforum!
Edited by Denisova, : No reason given.

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 Message 208 by Faith, posted 05-12-2015 5:55 PM Faith has not replied

  
Denisova
Member (Idle past 3324 days)
Posts: 96
From: The Earth Clod....
Joined: 05-10-2015


Message 210 of 225 (757763)
05-13-2015 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Admin
05-12-2015 2:02 PM


Re: Moderator Clarification
Percy,
Is there also a way to move a post to another thread altogether, so not mere copying it but actually replacing?
I guess, if not, you better use the Edit box when copying, in order to retrieve and incorporate the dbCodes.
Thanks in advance!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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