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Author Topic:   If evolution is true, where did flying creatures come from?
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Message 2 of 225 (737573)
09-27-2014 8:01 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the If evolution is true, where did flying creatures come from? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
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Message 140 of 225 (757603)
05-11-2015 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Zatara
05-08-2015 12:59 AM


Re: Evolution of Birds
Zatara writes:
Anyone who has raised identical twins has observed the dramatic effects of mutation in just one generation. Their twins may have started out with identical DNA, having come from the same zygote; however, in just nine months in utero the mutations have yielded differences noticeable to all but a casual observer.
I hadn't heard this before. Every division has mutations, but for new mutations to have a significant and measurable impact on a fetus as it grows in utero is new to me. Certainly a significantly non-neutral mutation in the first ten days while there are very few cells could have a significant impact, but with few cells it's a low probability event. Can you provide some supporting documentation?

--Percy
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Message 185 of 225 (757681)
05-12-2015 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Denisova
05-11-2015 2:53 PM


Moderator Clarification
Hi Denisova,
First, I'd like to address the general thread and say that I've been meaning to catch up with this thread but have lacked the time, but I'm doing it now. Initially it looks like the current discussion is off-topic, but I'll wait until I finish reading before making a final determination.
Denisova writes:
As soon as speciation happened, we will now have 2 species with different and separated genomes. And evidently each genome inevitably will be a *subset* of the original combined genome of the ancestral species.
I'd like to make sure that your meaning is clear for everyone. Here you say that the genome of each new species will be a subset of the parent species, but your previous paragraph talks about genetic change (alleles and genes will be both created and lost in each subpopulation), so in the end each subpopulation's genome will actually be both a subset and a superset of the parent species. Is that what you meant?

--Percy
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Message 186 of 225 (757682)
05-12-2015 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Faith
05-11-2015 6:04 PM


Re: Traits governed by more than one gene
An answer to this issue might be helpful to everyone:
Faith writes:
I wish I had a way to keep track of my own posts.
If you look in the left hand column of any message you'll see a link that says " Posts Ony". For instance, in the left hand column of your message I see the link Faith Posts Ony. If you click on that link then only your messages in that thread will be displayed with that message at the top of the webpage. This makes it possible to quickly browsing through your messages (or anyone's messages) to find what you want.
Also, if you click on the mood icon of any message (e.g., ) you'll get an index to all the messages of the thread showing who's replied to which messages. I only find this occasionally useful.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Message 188 of 225 (757685)
05-12-2015 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Denisova
05-11-2015 7:01 PM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
Denisova writes:
Though you won't get those distinctly different genomes until after there has been a period of inbreeding of the populations in reproductive isolation from each other.
Interbreeding between populations in reproductive isolation is an oxymoron.
I think you misread Faith's sentence. She said "inbreeding", not "interbreeding".
IN OTHER WORDS, in the sub-genomes there is ANY reduction in genetic variance.
Not sure what you mean here. Maybe, "In other words, in the sub-genomes there is *not* ANY reduction in genetic variance." If so then it isn't clear why this must be true. Clearly it is one possible outcome, but if it's actually the only possible outcome then it isn't clear why.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Message 190 of 225 (757687)
05-12-2015 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Faith
05-11-2015 7:22 PM


Moderator On Duty
Faith writes:
Just what I need, another new poster who is rude and ready to find fault without thinking for even half a second.
You're a participant, I'm a moderator, let's keep the roles separate, okay?
Speaking to everyone now, there are many long timers here who are by now very familiar with the Forum Guidelines and with moderation policies and habits. To those who now make an effort to insure their messages conform to these, thank you. To those who even after all these years are still committing the same infractions, well, what can be said?

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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(1)
Message 192 of 225 (757689)
05-12-2015 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Faith
05-11-2015 9:08 PM


Re: Traits governed by more than one gene
Faith writes:
THAN, not "then." [THAN the current genomes of extant humans."] This is a HORRIBLE grammatical error people are making these days.
Many people don't realize the negative affect bad grammar has on their writing. They don't realize how much it effects understanding. Its a very big problem, and it's impact is huge. Their is only so much one can take when people don't realize how bad they're writing is when there composing messages. Its too bad when this happens, and it happens to often. Everyone should say to themselves, "Your going to have to do better and get you're act together."

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Message 193 of 225 (757690)
05-12-2015 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Faith
05-11-2015 9:08 PM


Re: Traits governed by more than one gene
Faith writes:
It's a reasoned guess that fits the biblical facts...
...
The exact opposite wouldn't fit either the observed facts or the biblical facts.
Really? In a science thread? Again?
May I recommend that you cut to the chase and present your argument for this now, because I can tell I'm going to have very little patience with your basic approach and especially your attitude and indeed probably your whole interpretive system. Try it and see but I don't hold out much hope for this discussion. I was happy that you stuck to the terms in your first post about subpopulations since that's what I focus on. Too bad it's all gone downhill since then.
But FIRST the evidence for your claim please.
You've got all you're getting, my good reasoning. If you object then go argue with someone else.
I'll deal with the moderation issues, you deal with the evidence issues.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Message 195 of 225 (757692)
05-12-2015 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
05-11-2015 11:59 PM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
Faith writes:
As for the math, it's meaningless to me. You have to use English.
If you're referring to this:
Ga = X1-X2-X3-X4-X5-X6-X7-X8-X9-X10-X11-X12-X13-X14-X15-X16
It isn't math. It's a list of genes in a hypothetical genome. If it helps, think of it as a set of genes. So this would be saying that Genome A designated "Ga" consists of the list of genes in the set:
Ga = (X1, X2, X3, X4, X5, X6, X7, X8, X9, X10, X11, X12, X13, X14, X15, X16)
If I've correctly identified the misunderstanding then it should be possible for you to reread Denisova's Message 163 and understand what he's saying this time.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Message 196 of 225 (757693)
05-12-2015 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Faith
05-12-2015 12:08 AM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
Faith writes:
Evolution doesn't come to an end for lack of genetic material, it comes to an end because the processes that bring it about require the reduction of genetic material.
It's becoming clear now that this is what you want to discuss in this thread. I'll continue reading this thread to the end, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to rule that there should be a new thread proposal to discuss the idea that diversity was greatest when life first began, that no new and advantageous genetic material has been created since, and that each new species has had less genetic variation than any of its ancestor species. If you'd like to continue the discussion then you (or someone) might want to begin preparing an opening post now.
An alternative to a new thread might be to look through old threads and see if you can find one where this was the topic.

--Percy
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Message 197 of 225 (757695)
05-12-2015 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Denisova
05-12-2015 5:56 AM


Re: Traits governed by more than one gene
Denisova writes:
And I didn't meant "do your homework" to denigrate you, I just asked "do your homework", which, as a non-native speaker of English, I thought it is also to be understood just as a saying "May I recommend that you cut to the chase and present your argument for this now" (which were YOUR words).
Just for future reference, that's not an interpretation of "do your homework" that I think most English speakers would agree with. It has a couple possible contexts. There's a positive one, as in "It was apparent in her presentation that she had done her homework." But in the way you used it it means something closer to "You're uninformed" or "You're wrong" or both, and it *is* a put down.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Message 198 of 225 (757696)
05-12-2015 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Denisova
05-12-2015 7:18 AM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
Denisova writes:
2. the fact that after the split into two genetically isolated genomes, both of those sub-genomes take away only a subset of the original, total genome DOES NOT detract ANYTHING of the simple fact that there was an initial gain in genetic diversity BEFORE the split, which is what evolution theory ACTUALLY requires.
...
The OBJECT of evolution theory is to explain speciation. When speciation occurs, there MUST be an initial gain in genetic diversity.
Concerning a gain in genetic diversity for speciation, characterizations of "requires" and "must" might be a bit too strong. You're describing the typical or common way for speciation to occur, but there's a richness in possibility that this ignores.
One of the difficulties encountered in discussing this topic with Faith in the past is that a reduction in genetic diversity with no associated prior increase *is* a possible path to speciation. Where Faith differs with everyone else is in believing it is the only possible path to speciation.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Message 199 of 225 (757697)
05-12-2015 8:54 AM


Moderator Ruling: Current Discussion is Off Topic
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for the recent discussion, but I'm going to rule it off-topic. Someone should propose a new thread to discuss this over at Proposed New Topics. I think I characterized Faith's position pretty well a couple messages ago:
Diversity was greatest when life first began, no new and advantageous genetic material has been created since, and each new species has had less genetic variation than any of its ancestor species.
Anyone who would like to discuss the evolution of flight, please carry on.
AbE: A good candidate thread for resuming discussion of Faith's topic is Evolution Requires Reduction in Genetic Diversity. Some discussion has already picked up there.
Edited by Admin, : AbE.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Message 206 of 225 (757719)
05-12-2015 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by RAZD
05-12-2015 12:19 PM


Re: Moderator Clarification
Whatever you'd like to do is fine. You can post a copy over there, or just let Faith know you posted a reply here, though in that case Faith should still reply over there.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Replies to this message:
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Message 211 of 225 (757764)
05-13-2015 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Denisova
05-13-2015 5:58 AM


Re: Moderator Clarification
Hi Denisova,
Sorry, no automatic copy facility exists. Yes, to post a copy of a message you can copy the text from the Edit box, or you can use the Peek button, which will display the raw text of any message.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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