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Author Topic:   Something From Nothing?
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 10 of 124 (75856)
12-30-2003 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
12-30-2003 12:08 PM


Re: Something From Nothing? Reply#9
You ought to have responses for these three things:
quote:
1) Mystical experiences of a personal nature.
Far more people in the world, both present and past, have had "mystical experiences of a personal nature" that have led them to completely other beliefs. Knowing how readily the human mind deceives itself (read a paper some time about the accuracy of witness testimony, and why it suffers so heavily) should further cast doubt on this.
quote:
2) Evidence of changed lives from people whom I personally know.
Any belief can (and will) change your life, so long as you actually believe it. It's sort of a given.
quote:
3) An internal realization that cannot be proven but is simply known.
See #1.
Also, going back to your initial premise, we are left with the following options:
1) That a universe with a simple basic set of rules just happened to exist
or
2) That a universe with a near infinitely more complex set of rules that form up a sentient deity just happened to exist.
Occam's Razor trims that down quite readily.
Furthermore, there is the possibility that *all* basic sets of rules exist in separate universes. We only experience this one because this is the universe that formed us.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 12-30-2003 12:08 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 12-31-2003 2:29 AM Rei has replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 14 of 124 (76270)
01-02-2004 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
12-31-2003 2:29 AM


Re: Something From Nothing?
quote:
Ok,Rei....let us test the hypothesis of any possibility that a Diety could and would speak to humans through ancient writings translated unto the present. Now let me get personal...does this prospect annoy you?
Not at all, although it seems like an odd prospect - certainly not something I would do if I were a deity. However, there is no logical contradiction in that.
quote:
Perhaps the possibility of all logic in ones own mind being refuted is daunting.
Logic and the scientific method got us the car, modern medicine, and central air. I'll stick with them, thank you very much.
quote:
I know that I bristle when asked to consider the possibility of no Diety.
And I don't do the opposite. Strange, that....
quote:
1) I can not "prove" the existence of a Diety. You cannot "prove" the non existence of one either. To get back on topic, what is the source of our conviction?
I can only answer for myself, of course. There are an infinite number of "could-be"s in the universe. There could be an invisible snake sitting right next to your computer, getting ready to strike and kill you should you move. On the other hand, there might be an invisible rampaging troll heading toward you that will surely kill you if you don't move. There might be invisible gnomes waiting to blind you should you step outside your door, and invisible elves looking to decapitate you if you don't. You can't live your life around "unreasonable possibilities"; a person, consequently, is forced to discard unreasonable possibilities. Your deity falls under that category, just like invisible pink unicorns do.
quote:
Perhaps many of you feel comfortable with cold hard facts that you can quantify.
Mmm... gotta love that feel of central air!...... (see earlier reference)
quote:
To be fair, most atheists have an open mind and would love to be shown a fact that would allow their worldview to expand. Perhaps this is not as true with so called "believers" who will hang on to their sacred cow despite being unable to explain the rationale. I suppose that my defense of my "personal rationale and conviction" is an inner conviction which I cannot share.
The same inner conviction that leads hindus to believe that cows are sacred? The same inner conviction that leads shintos to believe that there are nature spirits everywhere? The same inner conviction that leads one to believe that Mohammed was a prophet of God? All of these people feel just as strongly about their beliefs as you do.
quote:
I am only trying to share this conviction out of a spirit of wonder and respect. I seek not to bother anyone. (whew! I am a long winded writer...sorry, guys!
No, it's good to have differing opinions - it'd be boring here if there weren't any!

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 12-31-2003 2:29 AM Phat has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 22 of 124 (76884)
01-06-2004 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by RingoKid
01-06-2004 5:44 PM


Re: Something From Nada
...or, all possible basic sets of rules could exist at the same time, each occupying their own universe.
Besides, your notion of the big bang expanding into a sea of nothingness isn't exactly correct. As to your tendrils line, are you referring to brane theory? It's hard to tell what you mean.

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by RingoKid, posted 01-06-2004 5:44 PM RingoKid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by RingoKid, posted 01-06-2004 6:37 PM Rei has not replied

  
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